School me on groupsets
 

I have an older steel road bike (Raleigh Gran Course, 531C tubing) and am thinking about switching from D/T shifters to a modern 9 or 10spd setup. The frame is spaced @ 128 so I shouldn't have an issue slipping a 9spd in there. I'd like something that is decent, no Sora but won't break the bank.

How does SRAM compare to Shimano? What about the different levels of each?

Sorry if I'm asking such a "noob" question, but most of what I know is old Campagnolo, Benelux and other such components. Thanks guys (girls)!

I know you can find a bunch of NOS Campy Veloce and Centaur stuff from recent years. SRAM and Shimano would be fine too. Go for 105 for Shimano - slightly heavier than Ultegra (or go for Ultegra 6600SL because it would look fantastic on an older steel bike).

Sram starts with apex and rival with the main differences between them being more alloy in the apex and more carbon in the rival. Both can be used with 11-32 cassettes as long as you get a med. cage and are roughly equivalent with 105.

That's some starter info and I could be a lot more detailed, but I encourage you to go shift some levers first and discover what you like

I read somewhere that something called DI2 was pretty good.

You're going to get a lot of die hard SRAM fans, SRAM haters, Shimano fans, Shimano haters, and the inevitable "Campy is best" crowd.

SRAM (from lowest to highest): Apex, Rival, Force, Red
Apex is a bit different in that it supports long reach brake calipers, medium (or is it long) cage rear derailleur. Mostly aluminum bits. Apex promotes the "Wi-Fli" where you run a compact crank up front, and an 11-32 cassette given you wider gearing than a triple. Apex cranks are solid I believe.

Rival is the best value IMO (except for the brakes ... you get slightly more adjustability on the Apex, Force and Red brakes). Best deals can usually be had on Rival. Rival adds carbon fiber shifters (aluminum paddles) and hollow cranks.

Force is a step up, although no features are really added. Shifters have different graphics, are supposedly lighter (but real world numbers dispute that), they use CF (different finish than rival) and Magnesium paddles. CF on the rear derailleur cage. Crank becomes CF as well. Brakes are identical to Red except for color

Red is the top of the line, you get Zero loss shifting on both the front and rear (all other SRAM groups are front only), and lots of CF + weight reductions all around. The Red cassette is machined making it one of the nicest cassettes out there. The FD is titanium, some have had flexing issues and use Force/Rival intead.

Summary: No major differences aside from material, weight and Zero loss on the front for red. Rival offers the best bang for the buck by far. Most of the extra weight of Rival/Apex are in the crank, if you look at the specs you can figure out which bits to upgrade if you care about weight.

Shimano's offerings are a bit more complicated: Sora, Tiagra, 105 (5700), Ultegra (6700), Dura Ace (7900).
I'm not sure how many speeds Sora is using, but Tiagra is 9-speed while the rest are 10 speed. My understandind is that features are the same with weight differences/smoothness from 105 to Dura Ace. Many have said that 6700 shifts as well or nearly as well as 7900 Dura Ace. You also have the electronics Shimano groups (well groups in a few months when Ui2 comes out), but that's another matter. 105/Ultegra offer the most value.

Differences: Shimano uses two levers for shifting while SRAM uses a single paddle. You'll get used to either. Shimano is a bit heavier, SRAM is a bit lighter at the same price point. Shimano shifts a bit smoother, SRAM shifts loudly and firmly. This of it as driving a sports car, vs. a more luxury sporty car (Bugatti vs Ferrari or something) ... they're both great just different, they both do what they're supposed to.

As of the latest revision, Shimano is now using directional chains and a different brake pull ratio than SRAM (previously you could interchange brakes). Cassettes are interchangeable, with some finding that SRAM bites less into aluminum freehub bodies.

Overall, you won't go wrong with either. Ride both, see which you prefer and pick one. They've both won TDF top spots, good enough for TDF riders, good enough for us :)

+1 intence

Your best bet, budget wise, is probably shimano 105 5600 (10 speed). Used shifters sell for ~$100. Get a used 105 or ultegra rear mech. You can use pretty much whatever front derailleur you want. Cranks, brakes, etc... you can use whatever. Also shimano/sram has the most options for used wheelsets. 8/9/10 speed rear hubs are cross compatible.

Well, I guess I have some test rides to go do. Bummer.... Thanks for the info thus far guys! On another note, are any of the hubs that come with the different groups (if they come with hubs) 32 hole? I'm on the heavier end of the spectrum (225ish) and worry about 28h or less hubs....

Hubs don't come with the groupset. Groupset is just shifters, bb, crankset, derailleurs, chain, cassette, brakes. Gotta buy the hubs separate.

Anyway, I know for sure 6700 hubs come in 32h because I'm considering getting some.

What's your budget??

You need a new rear wheel, cassette, shifters, chain, RD, FD, and crank. You should probably go ahead and get the brakes as the modern ones are likely much better than your old ones.

Assuming you are on a budget, I would aim for shimano 105, that's probably the best bang/buck in Shimano's line.

You should probably look at SRAM's equivalent too, is that force or rival....

Campy is nice but pricier.

When I was shopping for a bike last year I came to the conclusion that buying a groupset was not worth it since adding the rest of the bike would only be another $100-300. If you are dead set on keeping your old frame, then go for it.

Most group level hubs of any brand can still be had in 32h. I've had Shimano Dura Ace, Ultegra, 105, Campagnolo Record, Chorus, and White Industries hubs all in 32/32. For the most part 32h is still the main standard, even for boutique hubs.

And remember to always compare what you have priced out to a simliar new bike. Unless you are attached to the frame, there can be some good deals found on various sales/clearances. (my bike is easily less $$ than the list price of the groupo + wheels)

Good point. You may want to price out something from bikesdirect.com, take off the group/wheels and eBay the rest. You may want to pay attention to BB size/threading however.

Great info, friend. Im adding it to my files.

As far as price point goes, I just got a part time job at a very cool bike shop, so there is a discount of some degree on everything except complete bikes. That said, I'd like to be under $700 or so. This was my biggest motivating factor in making me move forward with the update idea. I have a lead on some very nice D/A hubs (9spd) laced to Mavic tubulars which I might go for. If I read some of the above posts correctly, the 9spd hubs should be 10spd compatible? I'm not sure I want to run tubulars but for the price they (different bike shop) are asking for a complete bike, it's worth it just for the hubs. I just want to make sure I'm buying bits that are all compatible.

As far as being attached to the frame, I really like it and I only know of 2 that are state side. It's rather light for a steel frame and rides fantastic!

dura-ace is the best /thread

don't forget about the used market for groupsets. i just picked up an ultegra group minus a chain and with an fsa crank for $300 on ebay. buying new doesn't seem worth it for the frame in question but deals can be had on last gen shimano stuff.

The 9 speed hubs are 7 (with a spacer), 8, 9, and 10 speed compatible.

^Cool. Thanks

I love DT. Stay on it. I am the DT crowd...

I was going to suggest hunting around for a NOS 10-spd Centaur group (great value, looks great, very solid) but if you have a start with a 9-speed DA, you have plenty of great options there too.

Intence,

Very nice response. I wish most responses were put that way.

Intence,

That may be one of the best, significant responses I have ever read in ANY forum. Nice job.

Myth: Campy is pricier ... gotta look at comparable groups. Their shifters are cheaper. I did budget Campy Centaur 10 conversions for $350-$400. I'm sure you can do Shimano SRAM equivalent for the same, depending on what you want (New, slightly used, NOS ... combination of new/used)

You can probably get away with using your old crankset if you want. I'm still using mine on one of my conversions.

Intence: Nice, but you left out Campy ..... I'm not a "Campy is best" guy, but I like it and it's worth considering.

I've ridden both SRAM and Shimano on MTBs and they work well in the midrange, but SRAM has the high-end covered easily. For road bikes I have a lot less experience, but I tried both and talked to the best folks at each LBS. I like the SRAM shift/brake lever better. If you want a wide-ratio cassette, SRAM Apex has an advantage. (Don't quote me, but I think Apex can do 34T, 105 only 28ish.)

Then I googled..

Anyway, it seems to me that SRAM Apex is intended to compete with Shimano 105, judging by price and Big 4 bikes that offer both brands.. but in (model year) 2010 Apex a lot of people felt it was significantly better. In 2011 Shimano updated 105 and most reviews still like Apex better. Also in 2011 SRAM updated Rival, and that's why it is an especially strong value now.

Ride Rival back-to-back with Force and Ultegra and see what you think.


Also I agree that putting a new gruppo (and wheels) on a very old bike may not be a great idea. You can get a complete bike for far less than piecing one together.