Aerodynamic drag....let's discuss this!
11-22-04, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroDog
Drag goes up roughly as the square of speed. Power, being drag times speed, goes up as the cube of speed.
11-22-04, 12:10 PM
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I,m gonna go buy a 930 put nitrous on it stick my BIG head out the sun roof and go up a hill just to see what happens.
this thread ROCKS.
this thread ROCKS.
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11-22-04, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
I would think any fairing would be mounted to the frame not the handlebars, so turning should not be a problem.
Wind direction-- humm, can we say sail? Wonder how much of a problem this is to bent riders.
My basic question is more basic. Say someone put a bent type fairing on a road bike, would there be a significant reduction in aero drag, or would the experiment fail because the road bike is so much higher than the bents.
Wind direction-- humm, can we say sail? Wonder how much of a problem this is to bent riders.
My basic question is more basic. Say someone put a bent type fairing on a road bike, would there be a significant reduction in aero drag, or would the experiment fail because the road bike is so much higher than the bents.
But you can also gain quite a lot by proper body positioning, aero bars, and the right clothing. Look at the average time trial racer, and compare with a typical road race position.
11-22-04, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 56-11 Fixed!
As for drag I find that wind resistance and thermal build up are my main two problems. At speed the friction causes my skin to heat up and I end up on the verged of heat stroke on most hard rides. Laugh all you want, wind burn is a serious problem so I'm constantly fighting between wearing clothes to protect my arms and legs (full skin suit) and overheating in a full skin suit.
11-22-04, 12:59 PM
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I knew I would find this old Scientific American article somewhere...https://www.zzipper.com/documents/HPV_Paper.pdf. 53-11, you can now change your name to AeroBoy.
11-22-04, 02:30 PM
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About a month ago I was browsing Nashbar for some cool-weather tights.
Now everytime I see a post by 53-11, I think of this guy:
Now everytime I see a post by 53-11, I think of this guy:
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11-22-04, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chimivee
About a month ago I was browsing Nashbar for some cool-weather tights.
Now everytime I see a post by 53-11, I think of this guy:
Now everytime I see a post by 53-11, I think of this guy:
That's what I would look if I quite lifting weights forever and just did cycling. I'm too proud to let myself go like that.
P.S. Does this guy look like someone capable of going 40 mph?...I bet he could barely get 30 mph even on a good day.
P.S. Look at his wimpy handlebar position (Is he touring?) If he had bigger arms he would be strong enough to support his torso in a serious Deep drop like I do. I bet you he has a wimpy short 90mm stem on there too.
Last edited by 53-11 alltheway; 11-22-04 at 02:58 PM.
11-22-04, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
According to some data I was looking at this weekend about IHPV, intl human powered vehicles, they confirmed exactly what 53.. said. The biggest factor limiting human speed is not weight, or slope but aero. They even had a table, which progress from slower to faster. Mountain bikes were near the top. No surprise there, but road bikes had very slight improvement. Most shocking was that bents were the fastest. They had several different categories of bents. It seems the advantages of the bent are:
-- lower to the ground,
-- uses clear fairing for aero streaming.
Which leads to the question I was going to ask. I don't want to lay down to ride a bike, it just feels wrong.
The aero penalty doesn't get severe until you get about 20..25 mph, and not that many bikers cruise above 20. However some do, [b]so why don't we see fairings on road bikes?[/].
-- lower to the ground,
-- uses clear fairing for aero streaming.
Which leads to the question I was going to ask. I don't want to lay down to ride a bike, it just feels wrong.
The aero penalty doesn't get severe until you get about 20..25 mph, and not that many bikers cruise above 20. However some do, [b]so why don't we see fairings on road bikes?[/].
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11-22-04, 04:25 PM
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By his own admission, I think a shaved bigfoot is closer? Someone please ask if he ever rode for Team Yeti?
11-22-04, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Zouf
How do you measure that? By ITT results? Yes, he does.
Winning tours doesn't mean you have the best aero tuck. Other factors play a role in winnning tours....but obviously having a good aero tuck matters.
11-22-04, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroDog
The hour record for a fully faired bike is 53.32 mph compared to 35 mph for an unfaired bike. So on level ground, aero is the thing! Check out https://www.ihpva.org and https://www.speed101.com/now/fastest_0717_4.htm
Since Aerodynamics seem to be the bottle neck of road bike performance most of your gains in speed and endurance will be made from eliminating aerodynamic drag.
I am amazed at how my endurance improved on long rides by going to the wide bars. Funny thing is I originally bought the wide bars to improve by stability in out of the saddle climbimg.
I was quite pleasantly suprised at how low I could set my handlbars and still be comfortable in the drops even with long negative slope stem attached.
Currently I am exploring the possibility of some custom 48cm to 50cm bars (I'm broad shouldered for my 6'2" height) with even deeper drops to further improve my efficiency. At the speeds my "motor" is capable of putting out even small gains of 5% better dynamics reduce power demands by quite a bit and let my travel noticeably farther and faster.
Definitely My biggest gains will be in aerodynamics. Thanks to my strong arms I can hold a very deep and FORWARD drop almost indefinitely which will pay huge dividends over the course of an long endurance race. Another nice side benefit of a forward deep drop is that it puts weight distrubution closer to 50/50 which normalizes the contact patch between the front and rear tire for better braking and cornering performance).
The more forward bar position Also dramtically improves my knee position at the top of the power stroke. I think I could easily switch to 185mm cranks because of this. Since custom cranks are expensive....I will wait until my final aerodynamic position is settled after experimenting with custom length handlebars and playting with stem length. Once the bars and stem length are set and optimized I will go for the longer cranks based on how much extra room I have gained at my knees.
The irony is that I would never be able to position my bars like this (and legthen my cranks as a result) If I didn't have very solid and well developed arms.
So maybe these big arms won't be dead weight after all (thanks to wider bars). .......if having this kind of "wasteful and uneeded" strength allows me to exponentially decrease the power requiremnts of my legs because of more aerodynamic bar positioning while also at the same time giving me more room at the knees (due to longer stem length) for longer power enhancing cranks.
Last edited by 53-11 alltheway; 11-22-04 at 05:16 PM.
11-22-04, 06:10 PM
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Um...I think you'll find your lower back to have some issues with that super low aerotuck, not to mention your breathing getting mangled. Your arms don't really do that much when you're in saddle-its your back.
11-22-04, 06:34 PM
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yeah, i thought the back was important in regards to being able to hold a low profile position on the bike; not so much the arms.
why are you so proud of your arms, dude? any monkey can lift weights and get big arms.
i agree w/ the premise of this thread (assuming that premise is something like: aerodynamics are important), but something you need to realize is that most people, when they ride bikes, aren't concerned w/ riding as fast as possible for as long as possible. group rides and races, for instance, may be more concerned w/ shorter periods of very intense riding and then recovery periods. so there isn't so much of a need to be in a 'deep drop' position for an extended period of time. those who have evolved from the primate state have learned that maybe more important than being aero is being smart and letting other people do the work for you.
i for one would love to draft you.
why are you so proud of your arms, dude? any monkey can lift weights and get big arms.
i agree w/ the premise of this thread (assuming that premise is something like: aerodynamics are important), but something you need to realize is that most people, when they ride bikes, aren't concerned w/ riding as fast as possible for as long as possible. group rides and races, for instance, may be more concerned w/ shorter periods of very intense riding and then recovery periods. so there isn't so much of a need to be in a 'deep drop' position for an extended period of time. those who have evolved from the primate state have learned that maybe more important than being aero is being smart and letting other people do the work for you.
i for one would love to draft you.
11-22-04, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 53-11 alltheway
Amazing how important aerodynamics are....and how ****** they are on a roadbike. The problem with the road bike is that it is basically aerodynamically limited (rather than by gearing or rolling resistance like other bikes).
Since Aerodynamics seem to be the bottle neck of road bike performance most of your gains in speed and endurance will be made from eliminating aerodynamic drag.
I am amazed at how my endurance improved on long rides by going to the wide bars. Funny thing is I originally bought the wide bars to improve by stability in out of the saddle climbimg.
I was quite pleasantly suprised at how low I could set my handlbars and still be comfortable in the drops even with long negative slope stem attached.
Currently I am exploring the possibility of some custom 48cm to 50cm bars (I'm broad shouldered for my 6'2" height) with even deeper drops to further improve my efficiency. At the speeds my "motor" is capable of putting out even small gains of 5% better dynamics reduce power demands by quite a bit and let my travel noticeably farther and faster.
Definitely My biggest gains will be in aerodynamics. Thanks to my strong arms I can hold a very deep and FORWARD drop almost indefinitely which will pay huge dividends over the course of an long endurance race. Another nice side benefit of a forward deep drop is that it puts weight distrubution closer to 50/50 which normalizes the contact patch between the front and rear tire for better braking and cornering performance).
The more forward bar position Also dramtically improves my knee position at the top of the power stroke. I think I could easily switch to 185mm cranks because of this. Since custom cranks are expensive....I will wait until my final aerodynamic position is settled after experimenting with custom length handlebars and playting with stem length. Once the bars and stem length are set and optimized I will go for the longer cranks based on how much extra room I have gained at my knees.
The irony is that I would never be able to position my bars like this (and legthen my cranks as a result) If I didn't have very solid and well developed arms.
So maybe these big arms won't be dead weight after all (thanks to wider bars). .......if having this kind of "wasteful and uneeded" strength allows me to exponentially decrease the power requiremnts of my legs because of more aerodynamic bar positioning while also at the same time giving me more room at the knees (due to longer stem length) for longer power enhancing cranks.
Since Aerodynamics seem to be the bottle neck of road bike performance most of your gains in speed and endurance will be made from eliminating aerodynamic drag.
I am amazed at how my endurance improved on long rides by going to the wide bars. Funny thing is I originally bought the wide bars to improve by stability in out of the saddle climbimg.
I was quite pleasantly suprised at how low I could set my handlbars and still be comfortable in the drops even with long negative slope stem attached.
Currently I am exploring the possibility of some custom 48cm to 50cm bars (I'm broad shouldered for my 6'2" height) with even deeper drops to further improve my efficiency. At the speeds my "motor" is capable of putting out even small gains of 5% better dynamics reduce power demands by quite a bit and let my travel noticeably farther and faster.
Definitely My biggest gains will be in aerodynamics. Thanks to my strong arms I can hold a very deep and FORWARD drop almost indefinitely which will pay huge dividends over the course of an long endurance race. Another nice side benefit of a forward deep drop is that it puts weight distrubution closer to 50/50 which normalizes the contact patch between the front and rear tire for better braking and cornering performance).
The more forward bar position Also dramtically improves my knee position at the top of the power stroke. I think I could easily switch to 185mm cranks because of this. Since custom cranks are expensive....I will wait until my final aerodynamic position is settled after experimenting with custom length handlebars and playting with stem length. Once the bars and stem length are set and optimized I will go for the longer cranks based on how much extra room I have gained at my knees.
The irony is that I would never be able to position my bars like this (and legthen my cranks as a result) If I didn't have very solid and well developed arms.
So maybe these big arms won't be dead weight after all (thanks to wider bars). .......if having this kind of "wasteful and uneeded" strength allows me to exponentially decrease the power requiremnts of my legs because of more aerodynamic bar positioning while also at the same time giving me more room at the knees (due to longer stem length) for longer power enhancing cranks.
Get aerobars.
Cole
11-22-04, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroDog
Drag goes up roughly as the square of speed. Power, being drag times speed, goes up as the cube of speed.
I stand corrected.
Regarding recumbents, their major aerodynamic advantage is lower frontal area, hence lower aerodynamic drag. If you add in a fairing the drag is reduced further and consequently the speed that is capable of being attained is higher.
11-22-04, 07:09 PM
#94
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Originally Posted by 53-11 alltheway
Amazing how important aerodynamics are....and how ****** they are on a roadbike. The problem with the road bike is that it is basically aerodynamically limited (rather than by gearing or rolling resistance like other bikes).
Since Aerodynamics seem to be the bottle neck of road bike performance most of your gains in speed and endurance will be made from eliminating aerodynamic drag.
I am amazed at how my endurance improved on long rides by going to the wide bars. Funny thing is I originally bought the wide bars to improve by stability in out of the saddle climbimg.
I was quite pleasantly suprised at how low I could set my handlbars and still be comfortable in the drops even with long negative slope stem attached.
Currently I am exploring the possibility of some custom 48cm to 50cm bars (I'm broad shouldered for my 6'2" height) with even deeper drops to further improve my efficiency. At the speeds my "motor" is capable of putting out even small gains of 5% better dynamics reduce power demands by quite a bit and let my travel noticeably farther and faster.
Definitely My biggest gains will be in aerodynamics. Thanks to my strong arms I can hold a very deep and FORWARD drop almost indefinitely which will pay huge dividends over the course of an long endurance race. Another nice side benefit of a forward deep drop is that it puts weight distrubution closer to 50/50 which normalizes the contact patch between the front and rear tire for better braking and cornering performance).
The more forward bar position Also dramtically improves my knee position at the top of the power stroke. I think I could easily switch to 185mm cranks because of this. Since custom cranks are expensive....I will wait until my final aerodynamic position is settled after experimenting with custom length handlebars and playting with stem length. Once the bars and stem length are set and optimized I will go for the longer cranks based on how much extra room I have gained at my knees.
The irony is that I would never be able to position my bars like this (and legthen my cranks as a result) If I didn't have very solid and well developed arms.
So maybe these big arms won't be dead weight after all (thanks to wider bars). .......if having this kind of "wasteful and uneeded" strength allows me to exponentially decrease the power requiremnts of my legs because of more aerodynamic bar positioning while also at the same time giving me more room at the knees (due to longer stem length) for longer power enhancing cranks.
Since Aerodynamics seem to be the bottle neck of road bike performance most of your gains in speed and endurance will be made from eliminating aerodynamic drag.
I am amazed at how my endurance improved on long rides by going to the wide bars. Funny thing is I originally bought the wide bars to improve by stability in out of the saddle climbimg.
I was quite pleasantly suprised at how low I could set my handlbars and still be comfortable in the drops even with long negative slope stem attached.
Currently I am exploring the possibility of some custom 48cm to 50cm bars (I'm broad shouldered for my 6'2" height) with even deeper drops to further improve my efficiency. At the speeds my "motor" is capable of putting out even small gains of 5% better dynamics reduce power demands by quite a bit and let my travel noticeably farther and faster.
Definitely My biggest gains will be in aerodynamics. Thanks to my strong arms I can hold a very deep and FORWARD drop almost indefinitely which will pay huge dividends over the course of an long endurance race. Another nice side benefit of a forward deep drop is that it puts weight distrubution closer to 50/50 which normalizes the contact patch between the front and rear tire for better braking and cornering performance).
The more forward bar position Also dramtically improves my knee position at the top of the power stroke. I think I could easily switch to 185mm cranks because of this. Since custom cranks are expensive....I will wait until my final aerodynamic position is settled after experimenting with custom length handlebars and playting with stem length. Once the bars and stem length are set and optimized I will go for the longer cranks based on how much extra room I have gained at my knees.
The irony is that I would never be able to position my bars like this (and legthen my cranks as a result) If I didn't have very solid and well developed arms.
So maybe these big arms won't be dead weight after all (thanks to wider bars). .......if having this kind of "wasteful and uneeded" strength allows me to exponentially decrease the power requiremnts of my legs because of more aerodynamic bar positioning while also at the same time giving me more room at the knees (due to longer stem length) for longer power enhancing cranks.
11-22-04, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fujiacerider
Get aerobars.
Cole
Cole
Basically the forward deep drop accomplishes some of the same things the aero bars accomplish....including moving your torso farther forward.
Unfortunately drop bars don't allow you to place your elbows on rests instead you have to support yourself with your arms which makes it more difficult to achieve the more ideal forward position.
The Wide bars make it much easier for me to support my weight in the adavntageous forward position.
11-22-04, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Zouf
I knew I would find this old Scientific American article somewhere...https://www.zzipper.com/documents/HPV_Paper.pdf. 53-11, you can now change your name to AeroBoy.
This is exactly the type of info I was looking for. Unfortunately the pdf file is horrible quality and must be painful to read thru. It is also frustrating as some parts seem to be missing. Any idea on the date of the article?
Here is a cheat sheet for those who haven't read it:
--IHPV removed limitations on aero advance. Unfortunately IHPV goes only for speed and not for improvements to std bikes and is not easy to navigate.
--streamlined road bike averaged 31 mph for an hour in 1979.
--a 20 mph biker moves 1,000 lbs of air/minute
--aero is more important than weight and rolling resistance at speeds above 10mph
--ordinary bike has effective fontal area of 3.4 to 6 sq ft
--cyclist who doubles power at 20mph will increase speed to about 26 mph
--cyclist with no power increase and 1/2 air drag will speed up to about 24.4mph
--70% of air resistance is to rider and not bike
--zzipper will decrease drag by about 20%, a speed increase of .25 mph for nonathlete rider
Bike comparisons
MTB-
effective front area: 5.4 sq ft
HP required: 145
All day touring avg: 10.1 mph
Max speed: 27.8 mph
Touring bike
front area: 4.3 sf
HP needed: 100
Touring: 13.1 mph
Max: 31.1 mph
Zzipper bike: front areo fairing
front area: 2.9 sf
HP needed: 67
Touring: 15.4 mph
Max: 35.7 mph
Kyle bike: full aero cover
front area: 1.4 sf
HP needed: 24
Touring: 23.3 mph
Max: 56.6 mph
My questions:
1. Why isn't there something between the Zzipper and Kyle?
2. Is Zzipper the best aero design? Bents have longer slooped fairings, wouldn't that type of design be more effective for a road bike?
3. Why isn't there more market interest? Increasing all day average speed by at least 2 mph seems significant to me.
11-22-04, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hair07
more important than being aero is being smart and letting other people do the work for you.
11-22-04, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hair07
yeah, i thought the back was important in regards to being able to hold a low profile position on the bike; not so much the arms.
What you failing to understand is that all parts of the body have to be equally strong for you body to function at it's maximum potential. You can't have any weak links. Small arms equal using a short 10 degree rise stem.....which leads to less than ideal rider positioning. This same set-up, however, doesn't have any effect on climbing (where speeds and air resistance are low)
11-22-04, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hair07
why are you so proud of your arms, dude? any monkey can lift weights and get big arms.
11-22-04, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 53-11 alltheway
LOL......Power is everything. Yeah I might be a super heavy weight (209 lb), but I can outpower any lightweight in a climb.
Hell, A Porsche 911 Turbo is a heavy car compared to a VW Bug.....but which car is going to accelerate to a top of a hill sooner? 53-11 ATW is just like that 911...all motor.
Besides a 15-20lb bike is proportionally less "dead weight" to me compared to your average 150 lb cyclist.....Another advantage in the power to weight ratio equation in favor of 53-11 ATW.
All I have to do to completely defeat a experienced light weight cyclist is too ride along side in in my Aerodynamic "Super Drop" and let my big quads and the DA 180's cruise.....hell Even when I'm cruising I'll still pass the lightweight. In this "cruise mode" I am hardly expending any energy compared to my lightweight counterpart whose arms are too skinny to hold the drop for long.
Then when the big hill comes I drop the hammer (cuz my legs are fresh from not even trying) and accelerate up that hill like a Formula 1 car.
Who says big arms and a 385 lb bench press don't do anything when I can hold a deep drop all day long and therefore extend the capabilities of my legs even more.
Hell, A Porsche 911 Turbo is a heavy car compared to a VW Bug.....but which car is going to accelerate to a top of a hill sooner? 53-11 ATW is just like that 911...all motor.
Besides a 15-20lb bike is proportionally less "dead weight" to me compared to your average 150 lb cyclist.....Another advantage in the power to weight ratio equation in favor of 53-11 ATW.
All I have to do to completely defeat a experienced light weight cyclist is too ride along side in in my Aerodynamic "Super Drop" and let my big quads and the DA 180's cruise.....hell Even when I'm cruising I'll still pass the lightweight. In this "cruise mode" I am hardly expending any energy compared to my lightweight counterpart whose arms are too skinny to hold the drop for long.
Then when the big hill comes I drop the hammer (cuz my legs are fresh from not even trying) and accelerate up that hill like a Formula 1 car.
Who says big arms and a 385 lb bench press don't do anything when I can hold a deep drop all day long and therefore extend the capabilities of my legs even more.