dzhang50

Hello everyone! I've been wanting to build a wheelset for a long time and finally put in the necessary research and work to make it happen. I've been practicing on rebuilding a 32-spoke rear wheel for a while now (granted it was out of necessity since all the alloy spoke nipples needed to be replaced). My plan is to do as good of a job as I can and then take them to a bike shop to be trued for the last 5%.

My weight is ~60kg (~135lb), but I do carry some heavy backpacks when commuting or returning home from the grocery store (not sure about the weight, maybe 10-20lb?) The wheels will be used on my only bike which I use for everything: commuting to campus, going grocery shopping, weekend rides, etc. Weight is important since there are some absolutely massive hills in Austin (some which are featured during my daily commute). My last wheelset was the 2008 Easton EA90SLX (I think they are 18/24 spoke wheels, 1472g official weight), but I had issues with spokes breaking on the rear wheel. I liked the lightness of the wheelset but I feel like I need some more stiffness and durability, since the spoke breakage was really annoying to deal with.

Currently I'm looking at the following build. I'm getting a good deal on the C4 hubs so those must stay (does anyone have any experience with them?)

Front:
24-hole Kinlin XR-270: 445g
DT Super Comp spokes: 5g * 24 = 120g
C4 FH-80 hub: 80g https://c-4shop.com/US-Made-Front-Hubs-FH.htm
= 645g

Rear:
28-hole Kinlin XR-270: 445g
DT Super Comp spokes: 5g * 28 = 140g
C4 RH-200 hub: 200g https://c-4shop.com/RH-200US-Rear-Hub-RH-200US.htm
= 785g

= 1430g total


Questions:

1. I was thinking of lacing them up radially on the front and 3-cross on the back. Is this a good idea? I read the 3-cross is the strongest configuration. Forums seem to be conflicted on whether 3-cross is possible on a 28-spoke wheel.

2. I've been debating between getting the lighter XR-200's to save some further weight (1320g instead of 1430g). Another idea is to get the XR-200 on the front and keep the XR-270 for its stiffness in the back. Your thoughts?

3. I'm wondering if I should get the lighter DT Revolutions or splurge for the DT Aerolite (I'm buying on C4's website so Sapims are not an option). I read that DT Revolutions are hard to work with so maybe they're not good for newbies. Is the aerodynamic shape of the Aerolites worth the extra expense?

Thanks for the help!

mihlbach

1. 2x for 28 spokes.

2. Stick with the deeper rims. You can also go down to 20-24 spokes with those rims at your weight.

3. Thinner spokes are harder to build with because they tend to wind up. However aero spokes are easier to build with because you can see the wind up, and even can prevent it by gripping the spoke as you turn the nipple.

I don't understand why you would buld the wheels yourself, them have the LBS finish them off. I would trust myself to tension and true them correctly more than I would trust an LBS mechanic to do it right. If you don't get it perfect the first time (pretty hard not to do with an aero spoke, btw), you can always continue to correct it until you get it right.

November Dave

Spot on response. Aerolites are the only thing in the world that makes CX Rays look cheap in comparison, though, so I'd just get some DT Competitions and get after it. Competitions have a heck of a lot less tendency to wind up than Revolutions. Learn to feel windup with your fingers as you tension the spokes. Add tension bit by bit. Enjoy it.

28 hole 3x spoking is possible on some hubs with large flanges (you can do it on Powertap hubs, for example), but for 24 and 28 holes, 2x really works well.

bbattle

If your Eastons had been properly trued and had evenly tensioned spokes, you shouldn't have had problems with them. Whomever was servicing those wheels; don't let them handle your new set.

canam73

If you were already breaking spokes on your old wheels than why are you striving for such a lightweight build on these, which you said would go on your only bike?

jayp410

I have Kinlin 270 / 24h front, 300 / 28h rear, with CX-rays. They were custom built by an experienced builder. I am 190 lb now, and have ridden these while as heavy as 205. I've put maybe 1500 miles on them, and they're still as true as when they were brand new. I do some light bunnyhopping over cracks / ledges and once hit a pothole at 25 MPH downhill that almost made my hands come off the bars.

urbanknight

Mihlbach responded almost exactly how I was going to. I suggest sticking with 24/28 if you broke spokes on the Eastons. The difference is only about 40g.

mihlbach

The spoke breakage probably had to do with poor spoke tension management than having an underbuilt wheel. If the wheel is built right, the spoke count isn't really going to factor much into the durability of the wheel. A 24-24 spoke wheel will be slightly lighter, slightly more aero, and slightly less stiff. For a 60kg person a 20-24 spoke wheelset with a 27mm deep rim is more than adequate, considering its built correctly. But 4 extra spokes per wheel isn't going to hurt anything if it'll make you feel more secure.

mihlbach

I weigh about same (between 210 and 185, depending on year and season) with basically the same wheels, but with Kinlin 300s and have more like 10,000 miles on mine. Built them myself and have never had to touch them with a spoke wrench since.

grwoolf

If you don't think you can true "the last 5%", then I'd probably just have the LBS build the wheels. From my perspective, spending the time getting the tension and truing perfect is the biggest advantage to building them yourself. It's hard for a shop to make any $ if they spend the time needed to get a wheel perfect, but you can spend as much time tweaking as needed to get it just right. The typical $20 wheel true at your LBS is not going to get you the wheel you can build on your own, just a wheel that will spin true for a bit. If you pay them to build the entire wheel, you will probably have a better guy doing the build and get a better result. I've only built a few wheels myself, so understand that I may be totally off base here (just my limited experience with a reputable LBS here in Austin).

motobecane69

sorry but the eastons he rode on clearly something was done wrong or the OP is riding his bike on vert ramps. I'm 240lbs and I have a set of velocity fusions laced to lightweight hubs and used 32 spokes and they are totally fine.

OP, if you are trying to save weight you have overkill with those rims at your weight. Honestly, if I were your size i'd be using a kinlin xr200's, it's a 375 gram rim or if your dead set with those rims, I'd go 20/24 instead of 24/28 or perhaps keep the XR270 for the rear but definately go xr-200 upfront. I built my wheels with DT Rev 1.8/1.5/1.8 spokes 2cross in the front and DT super comp on the drive side rear and Revolution 2.0/1.5/20 non driveside rear, both sides 3 cross. I was advised by an experienced and well respected wheel builder that the combination of two different types of spokes in the rear would actually do a lot to equalize spoke tensions. (sorry for not remembering the exact specific details but it was something to the effect that because you have a dished wheel, one side has more tension but buy going with different sized spokes on each side you help to equalize and thus build a better wheel. so far it's been great.

FWIW, I had NO PROBLEMS working with DT Revolutions. Do they tend to "wind up" yes they do but it's pretty easy to deal with. at worst, you put a piece of tape on the spoke while you adjust the nipple so you can see if the spoke is winding up or not. I didn't have any issues and I even used the 1.8/1.5/1.8 revolutions.

urbanknight

True, but the lower the spoke count, the narrower your acceptable range of tension becomes. So if the OP isn't very experienced, it's safer to go with more spokes for a higher margin of error.

dzhang50

Wow, a lot of terrific posts from many people! There are too many posts to respond to each one individually so I'll respond to each "theme" instead.


RE 2 cross vs 3 cross: OK, 2 cross it is!

RE breaking spokes on the Eastons: Yeah, at this point I think the main reason I was breaking spokes was that the wheel wasn't tensioned correctly. Everything that I've read suggests that at 135lbs, I can pretty much ride any sort of aluminum wheel as a daily rider. When I sold it the buyer noticed that it wasn't completely round (had a hop or to in it) although it was laterally true. The LBS dude also mentioned though that some of the 2008 Easton EA90SLX wheels were defective and spoke breaking was common and could be replaced under warranty (apparently he had the same issue in his pair), although I couldn't do that since I didn't have the receipt for the wheels.

RE the "5%" comment: That was probably the wrong choice of words, I should probably say something like "double check my work". The purpose of this wheel build is basically to have my cake (low cost) and eat it too (lightweight, fairly aero due to the deep rims), so spending an additional $50-$100 to have someone build it kind of ruins the deal for me. Plus I'd rather have the satisfaction that I built the wheel myself Although I do have some practice now on building wheels, since this is so far going to be a "one off" thing, I'll be using my bike as a truing stand and I don't own a spoke tension meter. My personality is meticulous enough such that I do think that I can get it true, but I'd like someone with the proper tools and experience to check that the spokes are tensioned evenly, dishing is correct, etc, even if this just means having the LBS bike guy spend a minute grabbing all the spoke pairs and telling me that I'm good to go.

RE choice of spokes: OK, so I'll avoid the DT aerolites and go with either the Super Comps or Revolutions. The tape idea to detect twisting is great, and I really like motobecane's idea of building with DT Rev, with DT Super Comp on the rear wheel DS only, since the DS spokes are under more tension. Can anyone else comment on this idea?

RE XR200 vs XR270: Most people seemed to be fine with the XR270's although the XR200 was also suggested. I've heard conflicting info on the XR200 used for daily riding elsewhere on the internet too. I'll be using Koolstop Salmons so I hope that the braking surface issues that I've read about on the Kinlin won't be an issue.

RE spoke count concerns: Yeah, I'll readily admit that I'm not very experienced, which is another reason why I'd like a slightly higher spoke count than normal. Going to 20/24 or 24/24 doesn't seem to save that much weight anyways, especially if I'll be using the DT Revs.

grwoolf: I'm also in Austin! Which LBS are you referring to?

canam73

I'm not doubting that he might be ok with his planned build. But I don't see what will be gained. Read the intended use in the OP. If he went to XR-300's with Dt Comps and brass nips he'd still be under 1600. +100 grams from his Eastons. I'm guessing the situations in which he'd notice would be pretty rare. But it will certainly be noticed when you carry your bike home with a wheel issue.

The way I see it, you should build your main/only wheels for the worst thing they will encounter. In this case it is loaded commuting. Even with a lighter rider why push it?

link_460

I have a set of XR-270's, 20/24 and couldn't be happier with the set up. The front and rear are both laced 2 cross with Novatec hubs, Sapim laser in the front with Sapim laser on the NDS and Wheelsmith on the DS of the rear. I'm 190lbs, have about 650 miles on them with the occasional hustle through Downtown Los Angeles (read major crap streets) with a bunny hop here and there and they are just as true today as when I first got them. Waaaay nicer than the Ksyrium SL's they replaced.

They were built by a guy named Philip at "Valley Cyclist" www.valleycyclist.com

valygrl

Can you point me to this info, I have a pair of wheels built with 270's and my rear wheel pulses when braking. I took it to the best shop around, and they confirmed it's true & spoke tension is correct... interested to hear what others are finding with these.

motobecane69

Based on that, I can easily agree with you. I'm assuming he already has a set of wheels though so if one breaks he won't be totally ass out. he is only 135lbs tho. you can build just about anything at 135 and get good use out of it. as for brass nips. DEFINATELY overkill in my opinon for light riders. someone told me to go ahead and use them on my light build and I'm glad I did, and ironically, one of my BRASS nips on my daily riders broke on me recently!!!! but ultimately, nipples are very far from the center of the rim. whatefver weight you can save from the perimeter is the place you want to save it so i say brass nipples all the way. i guess at the end of theday i'm riding on 1575 gram wheels at 240lbs so to me, a guy weighing 135 should be able to ride much lighter wheels but if he wants light and strong he should ride wheels identical to mine cuz the 32 spokes will make them quite tough for him.

urbanknight

I haven't had any issues with my Kinlin rims, and I used the crappy stock pads on my Allez for about 1000 miles before finally giving in and putting the Kool Stop ones on.

ericm979

Don't tension the XR270s too high or this will happen.




I'm told that 110 kgf is the max for XR270s. This one was up to 120 on the DS. It took a while for the rim to break, about 8000 miles.

Kinlin breaking depends on the individual rim. Sometimes they are a little uneven in the brake track. The one that I used to replace the broken rim above is one of those. I am hoping that the pair of XR270s I just bought are straighter.

valygrl

Update on my Kinlin brake-pulse issue.

Seeing this thread inspired me to contact my wheelbuilder, who immediately started the process of setting me up with a replacement rim. He said he's had the pulse issue before, it's not common but it does happen, and it's a manufacturer defect in the rim.

I couldn't be happier with this company - ROL Wheels. They are in Austin, by the way.

ROL D'huez wheels = 20/24 Sapim CX-Ray spokes, Kinlin XR-270 rims, ROL front hub, Powertap SL+ hub.