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I test rode Ultegra Di2 today and found out SRAM 11-speed is on the way.

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I test rode Ultegra Di2 today and found out SRAM 11-speed is on the way.

Old 09-18-11, 09:57 PM
  #26  
ilovecycling
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Originally Posted by DropDeadFred View Post
gonna tell you I think your idea on the Shimano shifting is off...I've found that the double tap system is confusing to many and less efficient IMO. I'd rather with either 1 lever or both and know that I got the shift right rather than miss shift because I didn't push hard enough...it makes plenty sense and has never once failed me on my 7800 DA. the only time i get ghost shifts are when I need things tuned...ive never shifted in the wrong directions...ever. although my friend who recently switched to RED from his 105 is having tons of problems getting used to shifting efficiently....oh and he said the hoods of his reds SUCK...they hurt and arent nearly as comfortable as his 105's....but thats just an opinion i guess...
Double-tap isn't for everyone. I found it super intuitive and easy to use. I get what you mean about not pushing the lever in far enough, but this happens to me less than the "ghost shift" did when I ran 6700 on my bike. Both are technically user error though. I think your friend is crazy if he thinks SRAM hoods suck. The exposed "guts" on the underside of the new 105/Ultegra/DA levers makes it uncomfortable as hell to grab. In terms of ergonomics, very few would argue that Shimano is better than SRAM.

Either way, to each their own. I won't argue which system is better because it all depends on what you want. Shimano has better front shifting and quieter operation, but SRAM has better rear shifting (in terms of lever operation-both shift up and down just fine when the user operates the lever correctly) and better ergonomics. I guess SRAM wins the weight war too, but function has always been more important than weight for me. My whole point to begin with was that Di2 totally solves all the problems I have with mechanical Shimano groups. That is why I want it.
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Old 09-18-11, 10:07 PM
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i have a 5600 fd on my sram force group and it works fine.
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Old 09-18-11, 10:08 PM
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SRAM's upshifts are glorious, especially on Red, so crisp. The downshift is quickly growing on me as well, I've missed one shift so far in 300 miles.
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Old 09-18-11, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ilovecycling View Post
Double-tap isn't for everyone. I found it super intuitive and easy to use. I get what you mean about not pushing the lever in far enough, but this happens to me less than the "ghost shift" did when I ran 6700 on my bike. Both are technically user error though. I think your friend is crazy if he thinks SRAM hoods suck. The exposed "guts" on the underside of the new 105/Ultegra/DA levers makes it uncomfortable as hell to grab. In terms of ergonomics, very few would argue that Shimano is better than SRAM.

Either way, to each their own. I won't argue which system is better because it all depends on what you want. Shimano has better front shifting and quieter operation, but SRAM has better rear shifting (in terms of lever operation-both shift up and down just fine when the user operates the lever correctly) and better ergonomics. I guess SRAM wins the weight war too, but function has always been more important than weight for me. My whole point to begin with was that Di2 totally solves all the problems I have with mechanical Shimano groups. That is why I want it.
agreed for the most part. the hoods on the reds have a little bump where it meets the bar...its definitely noticeably uncomfortable compared to the shimano hoods...
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Old 09-18-11, 10:25 PM
  #30  
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It took a bit of doing but I've got my FD shifting just fine with Rival. I haven't dropped a chain in a while so I'm not sure why so many people claim that it sucks. Noisy compared to Shimano? Yep no doubt about that.
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Old 09-18-11, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DropDeadFred View Post
agreed for the most part. the hoods on the reds have a little bump where it meets the bar...its definitely noticeably uncomfortable compared to the shimano hoods...
Ahh yes, the bump. I forgot to mention it in my last post. Easily solved with 1 or 2 pieces of cork bar tape between the handlebar and the corner of the hard plastic under the rubber hood boot. That corner kind of sticks up above the surface of the handlebar bend and can be painful if you hit a hard bump and have your hand in the right position.
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Old 09-18-11, 10:33 PM
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I'll pass the tip on
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Old 09-18-11, 11:57 PM
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Spoke to a Sram rep at Interbike on Friday. I asked him about any upcoming changes to the Red group...and he said..."no changes".

I don't get the issues with the front derailleur. Mine (Force) seems to work fine for me. I've been using it for almost three years. Am I just lucky? Check the cable tension...the front derailleur does not like it to be too tight.

I was also able to compare the Ultegra and the DA Di2 side by side. The Ultegra derailleurs are noticeably larger than the DA ones...especially the front.
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Old 09-19-11, 04:01 AM
  #34  
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When I worked with Campagnolo they introduced the 11spd groups. The conversation in the booth that show turned to development at one point and I was told that the single most difficult aspect of developing the 11spd groups was the chain. The entire concept hinged on it.

I haven't ridden Sram other than around a parking lot but I've heard and read plenty of not so favourable things about their chains.

If they can't get that right they can't do 11spd. I've also always been a little puzzled by their chain reputation since they had acquired a brand (Sachs) that I used to really like.
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Old 09-19-11, 04:39 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by I <3 Robots View Post
Spoke to a Sram rep at Interbike on Friday. I asked him about any upcoming changes to the Red group...and he said..."no changes".

I don't get the issues with the front derailleur. Mine (Force) seems to work fine for me. I've been using it for almost three years. Am I just lucky? Check the cable tension...the front derailleur does not like it to be too tight.

I was also able to compare the Ultegra and the DA Di2 side by side. The Ultegra derailleurs are noticeably larger than the DA ones...especially the front.
what part about "swapping to force cages" dont you get.....it's clearly a Red group problem
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Old 09-19-11, 05:48 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by DropDeadFred View Post
what part about "swapping to force cages" dont you get.....it's clearly a Red group problem
I think there is more to it than that. Yes the steel cage helps but the titanium cage is probably stiffer than campagnolo's aluminum and carbon one. I wonder if the chainrings or chain require more effort to shift than shimano or campy. Does a red fd shift better on a dura ace crank?
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Old 09-19-11, 05:54 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
I think there is more to it than that. Yes the steel cage helps but the titanium cage is probably stiffer than campagnolo's aluminum and carbon one. I wonder if the chainrings or chain require more effort to shift than shimano or campy. Does a red fd shift better on a dura ace crank?
well the shape and design makes a difference too...there is a clear visible difference when looking at them.

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Old 09-19-11, 05:58 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
When I worked with Campagnolo they introduced the 11spd groups. The conversation in the booth that showed turned to development at one point and I was told that the single most difficult aspect of developing the 11spd groups was the chain. The entire co cept hinged on it.

I haven't ridden Seam other than around a parking lot but I've heard and read plenty of not so favourable things about their chains.

If they can't get that right they can't do 11spd. I've also always been a little puzzled by their chain reputation since they had acquired a brand (Sachs) that I used to really like.
I've heard plenty of bad things about their 10sp chains, too. I had a 1090R, put 2000+ miles on it, and never had a problem. I'd be using another now, but couldn't find an appealing price anywhere. Switched to a 6700 chain, and the plates were coming apart in well under 1000 miles. Now I'm using a 105 chain, with is pretty solid. I'll go back to Sram next, most likely.
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Old 09-19-11, 06:07 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
If they can't get that right they can't do 11spd. I've also always been a little puzzled by their chain reputation since they had acquired a brand (Sachs) that I used to really like.
I used to run sachs chains on my campy 8spd.
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Old 09-19-11, 06:45 AM
  #40  
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Normally I am very conservative about cycling stuff, that is I'm not one to embrace the newest fad. My most modern bike runs 9 speed and there are no boutique wheelsets in my house.

Yet, I want that Ultegra Di2 so bad! What a piece of work my trusty old Klein will be with the Di2 wiring zip tied all over it. Will I have to give up my 32 spoke wheels just because they will clash with the digital era? So many questions......
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Old 09-19-11, 06:47 AM
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oh and theres another thread that states the sram rep said "no changes" considering youre the first weve herd of 11 spd from sram i doubt it highly....
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Old 09-19-11, 07:00 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by ilovecycling View Post
So anyways...

When I started the thread I didn't mean to turn it into another Di2 thread. I just wanted to share that I got to ride it and it rocks.

The more interesting topic is that SRAM will be improving their FD performance and going to 11 speed like Campy. I also hope they get rid of the stupid "open glide" cassette design. I appreciate the Red cassette for its 1-piece construction, but the missing teeth do nothing except bring the weight down a few more grams to impress the weight weenies. This stupid design is why people say SRAM's shifting has a crunching noise. It's amplified by the hollow construction of the cassette too. The missing teeth do not make shifting any more reliable under load, despite what SRAM's marketing says. They need to keep the same lightweight 1-piece construction, but PLEASE include all the teeth for crying out loud!
You didn't see it coming? Your post sounded a lot like the sidekick to that little lady who sells sandwich makers at 2:30 a.m. on TV. It sounds scripted, sorry man, which makes you all shills The point still remains that shifting isn't hard to begin with - you all make it sound as if we have been struggling to get by with our rubber band and scotch tape drivetrains for decades now. Finally I can give my brain a REST from all that mechanical shifting thinking I was doing. Trim is too difficult of a concept for me to grasp, let alone counting up to 400 watts.

Look, I am on this Earth expressly to make fun of this new 'innovation.' I hope you don't take this personally, but I am making more fun of the technology, not you alone. After all the talk about shaving grams, we're all happy to add weight to our bikes just so it can work more like an iPad?

As for 11 speed? I'm just happy it will eventually make the 9 and 10 speed stuff cheaper, and I still commute on an 8 speed from time to time. It's like riding a dinosaur
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Old 09-19-11, 10:58 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by RTDub View Post
You didn't see it coming? Your post sounded a lot like the sidekick to that little lady who sells sandwich makers at 2:30 a.m. on TV. It sounds scripted, sorry man, which makes you all shills The point still remains that shifting isn't hard to begin with - you all make it sound as if we have been struggling to get by with our rubber band and scotch tape drivetrains for decades now. Finally I can give my brain a REST from all that mechanical shifting thinking I was doing. Trim is too difficult of a concept for me to grasp, let alone counting up to 400 watts.

Look, I am on this Earth expressly to make fun of this new 'innovation.' I hope you don't take this personally, but I am making more fun of the technology, not you alone. After all the talk about shaving grams, we're all happy to add weight to our bikes just so it can work more like an iPad?

As for 11 speed? I'm just happy it will eventually make the 9 and 10 speed stuff cheaper, and I still commute on an 8 speed from time to time. It's like riding a dinosaur
Hmm... an Apple-branded bike? I think you're on to something there... people would flock to it in droves.
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Old 09-19-11, 11:30 AM
  #44  
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I have a Red FD sitting my drawer. I'm going to install it this week.
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Old 09-19-11, 12:11 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
All of rw's silly Sram shill static notwithstanding, this is about right. The only other observation I hear from Shimano users is they're not crazy about the clunky noises Sram drivetrains make while shifting (perceived as less precise and smooth than Shimano) but that strikes me as subjective. Front derailleurs that don't work and are a pain in the ass to adjust suck no matter how you slice it. Hopefully Sram is aware of this and they improve this one major flaw in their flagship group. I'm sure they'll get it right sooner or later. In the meantime Shimano's ace in the hole is Di2, particularly the cheaper Ultegra version, that will take back some of the marketshare they've ceded to Sram in the past few years on the high end.
In all seriousness, for once, I think this is more a case of the SRAM FD needing to be set up properly, with the right cable tension. When done just right, shifting is VERY fast. When not done right, it is quite painful. On 2 of my bikes, the cable tension isnt right and I dont have barrel adjusters on them, and I notice the poor shifting. On 2 other bikes, the cable is set just right and shifting performance is great.

So more than "poor front shifting", I'd say the problem is "finicky front shifting".
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Old 09-19-11, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by guadzilla View Post
In all seriousness, for once, I think this is more a case of the SRAM FD needing to be set up properly, with the right cable tension. When done just right, shifting is VERY fast. When not done right, it is quite painful. On 2 of my bikes, the cable tension isnt right and I dont have barrel adjusters on them, and I notice the poor shifting. On 2 other bikes, the cable is set just right and shifting performance is great.

So more than "poor front shifting", I'd say the problem is "finicky front shifting".
This may be true, but it's more like "insanely, ridiculously, almost impossible to get right, finicky front shifting."
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Old 09-19-11, 12:48 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by I <3 Robots View Post
I have a Red FD sitting my drawer. I'm going to install it this week.
Don't do it. You're totally going to drop a chain on a mountain attack and lose the TdF to some damn Spaniard hopped up on clenbuterol. And then what? You're going to end up with a stomach full of anger, that's what.
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Old 09-19-11, 12:52 PM
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Well...at least I'll find out if its nothing more than "forum talk" and user error.
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Old 09-19-11, 01:13 PM
  #49  
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Does anyone know the cog size limit on a Ultegra DI2 RD? The reason I ask is that I had to install a Deore XT just to use a 11-34 cassette with my DA group.

I'd love it if the DI2 could handle a 32 or 34 cog.

thanks,
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Old 09-19-11, 01:17 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by DropDeadFred View Post
gonna tell you I think your idea on the Shimano shifting is off...I've found that the double tap system is confusing to many and less efficient IMO. I'd rather with either 1 lever or both and know that I got the shift right rather than miss shift because I didn't push hard enough...it makes plenty sense and has never once failed me on my 7800 DA. the only time i get ghost shifts are when I need things tuned...ive never shifted in the wrong directions...ever. although my friend who recently switched to RED from his 105 is having tons of problems getting used to shifting efficiently....oh and he said the hoods of his reds SUCK...they hurt and arent nearly as comfortable as his 105's....but thats just an opinion i guess...
On eof my riding partners friend recently bought a Pinarello FP Quattro with SRAM Force. His reason for going SRAM was to "try something different." Well, in the 10 months since he got his new FP he has done nothing but buttache about how much he hates the SRAM. He goes to the shop, gets an adjustment and he is happy for a day. Then on his next ride he again starts complaining again about the crappy shifts and the missed shifts. It is getting to the point where I almost don't want to ride with him because of all the buttaching and bellyaching.
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