Ive been studying the "Wheels of Commerce," vol. 2, by Fernand Braudle, recently. In this book. Msr. Braudle examines the roots of capitalism up through the 18th century, and essentially marks out the founding precepts of our modern day, bought-and-sold economics.
He makes the point that all markets shift in accordance with changes in supply, demand, labor, resources, capital, transport, etc. Nothing stays the same for long.

Now that China has become the contract manufacturer for much of the world, the 'market', if that is the right word, is following suit as it always has. The consumer hasn't changed his demands and the producer makes little for his contract work after overheads are paid. The money is in the middle parts, distribution and capital investment... which is one reason we like China to make stuff.

Has this stolen the "soul" of brands? Perhaps. The brands are still there, if their namesake products are let out to others to make. In some ways this process helps us; it has made a vast wave of products available to us, at generally affordable prices.

Yet, 'market' cycles have a lifespan of boom, plateau and bust. Traditionally, it's been about 50 years. Another facet of the market driven endeavor.
But we seem to speed all time tables up, if not cut them in half, in this day and age.
If that is so, I suspect we'll soon reach the peak of the curve, if we haven't already. So you may want to actually enjoy the current "bike boom" while you can.

But fear not, there is hope. For every contract bike maker and his eager consumer segment, there is a fringe of artisan makers. Bring enough money to the right people and you can still get a craft-made bicycle should you want something with "soul."

This segment of production may actually become the next wave, as I understand things. That hasn't really changed in centuries, either.

Look at the link I posted. MOLDS are not EN certified.

The products coming out of them are.

Roll of eyes.

As for failures, is that your benchmark of quality? No-one has died yet?

that's what she said.

My biggest dilemma is whether to go custom titanium, custom stainless steel, or custom bamboo... ;-)

Again you try to paint me in black and white just because I don't agree with you. That would be incorrect.

But here's my take since you asked:

- Nobody died, but that's not a great benchmark. More importantly, there has been nary a whisper of generic frame failures out there. Everyone hems and haws about 'how dangerous' these bikes are, but I think we've got enough experience with them now to say that they are safe, for the reasons I put for before. I don't care about how much you theorize about how many places the manufacturing could go fatally wrong - it just hasn't happened, so all those theories about danger are total bunk. You know 100% that people would blog all over the failures if they were happening even on a rare basis.

- These generic CF frames are giving the name-brands a run for their money because the stark truth is that in terms of speed, the frame counts for shockingly little. Well less than 1% of your performance, and that's with a full-out aero TT frame vs a round tubed bike. If you're talking speed performance here, I don't think an argument that these bikes are 'slower' is particularly compelling when you're talking about differences so small that even the pros would have a hard time taking advantage of them. (Theoretical advantage of <10sec/40k in a 1hr TT for an aero frame.)

- There are definitely differences in the ride quality, but that's not necessarily a problem, just a preference. I happen to not like my Cervelo ride quality for long rides since it's so damn stiff (my Giant is way more comfy) but that doesn't mean it's a design flaw.

- I understand that when some people talk 'quality', they're insisting on pieces made and handled by non-Chinese workers. Heck, in general, I don't think you'd be too far off in most industries to say that handmade goods in the US or Europe will have a higher quality factor than the same item made in China, if only for the increased costs of workers that necessarily warrant a higher quality good to include the higher costs. If that's what your standard of quality is, then it doesn't matter how good those asian frames are - they won't be quality to you.

From what I've seen, these asian generic CF frames have been more than up to par in every department. While China has its fair share of QC issues in manufacturing, these generic CF frames have been performing admirably for the past 3-4 years, and look great to boot.

As a response to your black and white statements made about a subject you clearly know little about: Manufacturing.

These frames are failing.

They are failing in the real world and I know those who have had theirs fail. Since they are disposable most people just move on. It's not a theory.

They are failing in testing machines. I know. I've seen it.

They are not passing the standards they are supposed to. I know. I've seen it.

Certainly not all frames are failing. Many are being ridden and are fine for the application for which they are being used. What is different about them is the rate of failure which, along with most other goods from China, is much higher than goods made elsewhere.

Another point to consider is quality. I just spent two days at an assembly factory working with Chinese frames where we had to ream and face all the head tubes of these semi-integrated frames because the races were bonded so poorly. They were not parallel to each other or perpendicular to the HT. The entire production shut down for two days so ALL of the assembly guys could physically check EACH FRAME to make sure it passed QC.

The end user will never know about what had to be done to their frame to make it work. The races are now properly machined and will function just fine.

Are these 'generic frames' as good as a frame I am riding right now from that same factory that I built myself? I don't think so.

Will any of these frames we worked on fail and cause the end user to question their quality? Yes, and at a higher rate than a better built frame.

Will ALL of these frames fail causing the blogersphere to take up arms? No.

Will these frames perform as well when raced? No, they will be softer and some may have problms like not tracking correctly or developing speed wobbles during high-speed descents due to alignment issues.

Will these frames prove to be as durable over the lifetime of the frame? I think not by time will tell.

We are at the beginning of the generic debate, not the end.

From what you say, I'll agree - it sure sounds ominous! Makes me think, when these frames start failing and folks start getting injured, I'll think back "Wow - Bob was right!"

Although given the surprising paucity of frame failures in the past 3-4 years, and odds that the manufacturers are just going to get better at what they're doing, I'm not holding my breath to see this tidal wave of failures you're predicting.

I also actually don't care what the manufacturing specs are (I'm usually not an early adopter and also know little about the manufacturing specs in my car, house, and most of the stuff I use.) When the product comes to market and is tested by tens, if not hundreds of thousands, that's when I'll consider making a move. If you could build a race-winning, safe bike, with paper mache, that works safely for tens of thousands of people over several years, I don't care if you make it in your basement with a blender - I'll ride it.

Company B may be able to sell a similar product for less if they pay their workers less, ignore the environmental aspects of large scale production, and manipulate their currency to make buying from them to be even more favourable.

Yes.

It is like building a house... two builders using the same materials will get different results and the attention to detail and experience of the builder plays a significant role.

I always say that any monkey can learn to weld and braze but that is a small part of fabricating a frame as one needs a deep understanding of those materials, geometry, and how to blend all these things together.

I have a good number of hand built frames and there are differences between the production level machines and the one off builds.

I am one of those monkeys who can handle a torch but also understands more than the average primate as to how a good bicycle comes together.

I implied no such thing. Quit with the hyperbole.

Less, yes but not less than half.

All of the things you mentioned happen and more but it doesn't make up for the vast difference in pricing.

See now, your argument is also plausible-very reasonable, in fact.
BUT
The only "hard facts" in your response are based on internet forums.
I could make the same argument that you don't know something something asian parts GM..woah, sorry. I meant to say I could make the same argument that your "evidence" and "facts" is identical to a student handing in a Wikipedia article as an assignment.
Same point anyway. All I'm saying is your argument is about as plausible as mine is.

Something completely overlooked is the incidence of complaints-if someone sinks $760 bananas on a full carbon frame "just like that $8800" frame in the window of the LBS, and they have a problem, they probably won't feel too bad. It's only $760. But if someone sank $8800 into a frame..they are going to yell and scream, to anybody who will listen.

Lets take my bike as an example-2011 Pinarello Dogma. As it happens I work for the company that imports them into the country.
You can buy a generic frame painted up the same as this from one of those open mold companies in China, for about $760au. There are some differences-many, indeed. Such as a round, standard seatpost as opposed to a Dogma/Super Leonardo seatpost, a different external weave of carbon, a completely different construction-a different grade of carbon, a different modulus-the real Dogma uses 60 modulus Torayca carbon. The cheapie uses 24 modulus..and indeed some parts of the layup are FIBERGLASS. I'm very good friends with the composites engineer who designed and built these full carbon wheels for the car that beat the veyron as the fastest production car. I tend to think he knows a bit about composites.
But how do I know all that? Well we've dealt with several people with such knock-off Dogma or Prince frames, end up with a manufacturing defect, and come into us for a warranty claim..a lot of them have no idea they are riding an inferior product. The incidence of knock off frame warranty claims is greater than the incidence of warranty claims involving legit Pinarello frames.

As far as how we have seen internal construction? Well if someone has an insurance claim on their real Dogma, and the claim is successful, we have to chop it up. Internal construction finish is amazing.
And as far as the generic frame goes, if someone comes in for a warranty claim on their knock off, and they fins it's not worth repairing/cant be warrantied, we can offer to dispose of it for them..and chop it up to have a look for ourselves.

Sorry for the essay. I realise the above is strictly for only one brand, one type of open mold frame, but it underlines Raoul Luechers argument-on the surface, to the untrained eye, sure that there Dogma is only $760 and the other one is $8800-but the story on the inside is very, very different.
You just don't know.
With an authentic bike, you can ring someone, abuse them, obtain some customer service and satisfaction. You can come in and have a chat with us-we want your experience to be positive and fulfilling, and we want you to ride our bikes, buy our products, and come here for service.

But if you ever have questions, queries, doubtful points or problems with your generic frame..well good luck to you. Because there is no after sales support. You can look at the pictures, deduce that it must be "the same"
and I'm sure you will want to believe it too-for a price difference of $8140, anyone might.
But you just don't know...

Yeah, yeah. Essay is over. I just wanted to share some actual facts and experiences, not just "facts" hot off the 41 press.

EDIT:

I'm not done. Here's a couple of video tours of the Pinarello Factory in Treviso, Italy. You can see some of the testing they do.
Kindly find me a video of an open mold company testing their products?


The final title in the video is misleading..none of these videos are in/from china. In fact we have these all on DVDs supplied from Pinarello too. Luciano features in some of these videos, he works for Pinarello. Funny guy.

Actually, you are - atleast implicitly. You are pointing out all the possible risks with buying generic frames, and those points are very valid.

However, you are presenting your anecdotal evidence as proof of inferior quality - given your experience, that carries a fair bit of weight. However, it also implies that you have seen these generic frames failing at significantly greater rates than branded frames.

The truth is probably somewhere between what you and hhnngg are saying.

The fact that all low-end stuff is made in China doesnt mean no high-end stuff is made there, or that the Chinese arent smart businesspeople who are incapable of making a product that can be sold in the US without a Western figure to guide them.

And for a factory, it isnt a trivial thing to have 2 or 3 different sets of materials around, one for making the high-volume OEM stuff and another deliberately lower quality product for direct sales. It is logistically and operationally easier to continue making the same product you are making as an OEM, and sell it as a generic product.

There is a risk re seconds, defects and utilization of faulty raw materials. That is where the reliability of the seller comes in, just as it would anywhere else. And yes, this may surprise some people here but there are reliable sellers in China as well. Yishun comes to mind. Great product, and if you read reviews on the Groupbuy forum, great service as well when it comes to warranty. Same for e-hongfu and Greatkeen.

If you work with the assumption that those yellow devils are just out to con you at the drop of a hat, then sure, a generic frame is a bad idea. But if you work with the assumption that there are legitimate Chinese businesses that are trying to tap into a market (direct sales to consumers), then there are options that are worth considering.

And I say this as someone who thinks that the Chinese Govt is absolutely unethical, immoral and even evil - so I am hardly an apologist.

Hey don't lump me into the extremist category. I'm being very reasonable here. I don't think these frames are amazing and top quality by any means (still haven't bought one myself), but I'm just like you in that for all these fearmongering arguments about "the quality control! the danger! You JUST DON'T KNOW! How could you!", they're actually turning out to be remarkably safe and well performing for the past few years. That's pretty much all I've been stating in my posts.

Although I do stand by my general opinion of ALL road bikes, from steel, alu, to CF,in that frame differences are NOT responsibile for a signfiicant difference in speed for racing. I don't think many people will argue with that, given that almost all published aero testing shows a <1% speed differential if you just compare frames differences.

There is a definite difference in quality. That doesnt mean the cheap knock-off wont be acceptable and safe, but there IS a difference. If it turns out to be not safe, which is probably rare, you have no where to go. I wouldnt be interested if they were proven safe because I want to spend my money with the company that takes pride in what they do and makes their own designs, not some knock-off company that just rips off everyone else's ideas and does it cheaper.

this thread is starting to look familiar...

I agree. And so is Bob - the points he raises are valid as well. The reality is greyer than you'd imagine. Problem is, we are assuming ALL Chinese vendors are the same. THAT is the flawed assumption.

As for Pallen's point - of course there is a difference. I dont think anyone expects a $500 Chinese frame to be the same as a Cervelo S5 or a Dogma. But I do expect the $500 Chinese frame to be about the same as the Litespeed M1, for example.

Agree with this and add an additional point for the U.S. brands ... involvement in bicycle advocacy. All the major U.S. bike brands spend time and money to create safer places for us to ride. This is difficult and frustrating work. Yes, it is in their monetary interest to see cycling grow, but we all benefit. Companies that do not make this investment are taking unfair advantage of those who do, in my opinion. Yes, it's a free market and they are not behaving illegally, but it is smarmy, in my opinion. When I choose a bike good citizenship of the brand is a factor. That and the color.

Our importing experience is that we are receiving warrantable service calls in approximately 4% of our goods sold. One of our competitors importing a similar product from a different manufacturer was receiving warrantable service calls in 12% of goods sold. I deem our failure rate to be high, our industry standard is ~2%.

As far as life expectancy, I can only surmise based on build quality and materials used that lifecycle is compromised.

Bob, on Cervelo's web site, under "Company" and then under "Support", there's an "ask a question" to the right side. I put in the key words: "boomerang" and it says that the R3 can take 3x DIN frontal impact. The R3 frameset is $2,400. From your testing experience, does this type of claim come close to the carbon frames that you tested?

But on the other hand I remember being a kid in high school drooling over the full campy Italian beauties at my local bike shop that I could NEVER afford. Today a kid can buy a race ready high end, light, durable bike with a nice group set on it for a fraction of what a Masi would have cost me in 1985.

Please do not speak for me. I am NOT making that assumption. The frame I am riding right now was made in China and it is awesome.

I am speaking specifiacally about frames being dumped on eBay.

Yes, some people are making statements to the effect of, "same factory, same product with a different sticker". This is what I am responding to.

Just because a frame/other component is made in China/other asian country doesn't neccessarily mean it's crap and going to break. A friend had genuine Pinarello Prince less than 18 months old and during routine maintenance a crack was discovered in the frame. It was covered by warranty but I don't see that as being the point. It is a reasonably high end bike made by a reputable manufacturer yet it still fails. I have another friend that had a Cervelo frame crack, it was less than a year old. I have heard stories of other "name brand" frames failing.

Not saying generic frames are better or even as good a quality as "name brand" ones, just saying there can be problems with both.

But having the warranty makes a difference.

Good question.

I don't own the test standard (you have to buy them) but I don't recall seeing an impact test there like the one you're describing. I honestly don't have an answer for you.

Now, I want to know, too. I will talk with those I know who conduct testing and see what they say.

EDIT: I just went through the test report I do have on this computer (I'm at home) and there was no impact test like the one you're referring to for the EN Standard. I will still do some digging.