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Bike fitting theory for a "Race" fit

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Bike fitting theory for a "Race" fit

Old 10-08-11, 10:10 PM
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speedqing
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Bike fitting theory for a "Race" fit

Trying to figure out a good fit for my next bike that I might be racing.

I've always sized myself with a longer top tube and a larger frame relative to the racers you see with the smaller bikes (I'm 6'1 and ride a traditional 60 and compacts with about a 59cm top tube length).
I tried a bike on a 20 min test ride with the same cockpit length as my usual setup but on a smaller frame with a shorter stack height and lower headtube recently (it was a Large Giant TCR).

Some things I noticed
Pros: I felt more aero and noticed it a bit when coasting, more sensitive to my weight distribution/moving laterally and I guess less weight

Cons: Didn't feel like I was getting as much power in the saddle for some reason (obviously haven't been properly fit at this point), it didn't feel as stable and when I decided to try and get up off my butt and sprint in the drops the bike just totally started rocking side to side like crazy and I almost fell (which never really happens on my other bikes).

Are the cons I noticed just a result of me not knowing how to distribute my weight or handle a smaller bike? Is it better to just stick to what I'm used to or would I get used to a smaller sized frame?
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Old 10-09-11, 05:06 AM
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who said you need to look like a pro to race? a smaller bike usually has a shorter wheelbase, which is easily adapted to.
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Old 10-09-11, 05:36 AM
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You rode a TCR with a half centimeter shorter top tube than what you indicate is on your current bike. The tt on the TCR is 58.5. It's hardly worth mentioning.
You don't mention what you are riding now. But let's stay within the Giant family. If you had been on a Defy Advanced, that would have a 57.5tt and a 20.5 head tube. The TCR has a 58.5tt and a 18.5 head tube. These bikes are not interchangable. By that I mean that rider body geometry (leg length versus torso) might eliminate one or the other. With a one cm difference in tt length, if both frames work a different stem mght be needed. It depends on the rider.

I'll say this...do not buy a bike because you want to look more aggressive. In the Cannondale world, Liquigas rides Synapses in races like Flanders and Roubaix because the bike eats up road vibration better. But the dirty secret is that a manufacturer can put together a frame for a rider and you won't know that it's totally different (geometrically) than what's at your shop. Further, the ability to lower your stack height (I am guessing you are referring the the height of the bars on the steering tube with the stem turned downward) is going to have a lot to do with your flexibility and core strength.

In closing, when I read "I might be racing" I am making the assumption you are not doing that now or have not done it much. At that level it matters not what you are racing. It matters if you are already fast. I could be wrong there.

Hope that helps.

Last edited by roadwarrior; 10-09-11 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 10-09-11, 06:27 AM
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Listen to RW as he is gracious enough to share his considerable experience here on BF.
OP...I can only speak for me and we are the same size. In either TCR or Defy I would be on a Large. I ride a 59 c-t-c bike right now with 170mm head tube which is a bit short for me. I have only average flexibility if that and so a super slammed riding position is out for me...but you may have the flexibility to do just fine with it..
You didn't say anything about lack of comfort by riding the TCR L which I believe to the be correct size for you...it is for me and the size I would choose. One hell of a race bike btw. The Defy all told is a better frame for me because of my long legs which works well for the taller head tube of the Defy if I want to run a flat stem in particular.
Sprinting out of the saddle in the drops is an acquired skill. There is no reason why you can't sprint on the hoods other than you can't get the same leverage and wouldn't be quite as aero. The benefits of riding aero are substantial if racing. If looking for a new bike and you have excellent flexibility, strongly consider a TCR as I have ridden one a fair amount and for the money in particular, they are hard to beat. You can also set up a TCR a bit more upright but not as much as a Defy. I suggest you test ride both to decide.
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Old 10-09-11, 07:06 AM
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I have two bikes of different size. Riding out of the saddle feels different for each bike because of the difference in weight distribution but it only took a couple rides for me to get use to it.
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Old 10-09-11, 09:12 AM
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There's more to consider that just the TT length when it comes to figuring the reach of a bike. If the seat tube angle is the same on both bikes, then the TT length difference is the same as the difference in frame reach. If not, then each degree that the STA is steeper, adds about 1cm of reach.

Handlebar reach and stem length must also be considered in the total reach to the brake hoods or hooks.

As for the saddle to bar drop, for a large person an 8-12cm drop would be considered aggressive. If you're using a lot less, then you've got a recreational setup. I only ride a 51cm frame (measured center to center), but use a large 11cm drop. I rode with an 8-9cm drop for many years, but just decided to try something greater a few years ago. Even after taking nearly a year off the bike, I got back on it (with the 11cm drop) and didn't feel uncomfortable, which surprised me.
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Old 10-09-11, 09:26 AM
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When you say both bikes had an equal cockpit length, you didn't mention if that meant you moved the seat back, put a longer stem on, or if you found a way to make sure saddle fore/aft and bar location were exactly the same. Changing where your saddle is located can affect your power output.

Also, remember that handlebar drop isn't everything. Google Merckx's to see how you can get aero with only 1 or 2 inches.
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Old 10-09-11, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
But the dirty secret is that a manufacturer can put together a frame for a rider and you won't know that it's totally different (geometrically) than what's at your shop.
Are these one piece frames or lugged? Aren't the molds kinda expensive to develop one for a specific rider? You would think they could make some extra $$$ by selling something popped out of LA, AS or AC's specific mold, especially since even the big teams are barely making it.
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Old 10-09-11, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
Are these one piece frames or lugged? Aren't the molds kinda expensive to develop one for a specific rider?
They are, but companies, especially those passionate about their sponsorship, will do it.
Bennati (custom Super Six)
http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/...uper-six_76325

Boonen (custom Tarmac?)
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...-material.html

Both used aluminum frames to check fit/handling. When that was good they made the molds.
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Old 10-09-11, 09:41 AM
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Also, for "race" fit, there isn't that much difference in the actual fit. Your position is fluid on the bike, dependent on fitness and health.

So, for example, my back has "several burst and bulging discs" according to my doctor. I struggle with a real upright position. I've also been riding a while, so I have relatively strong glutes which support me when I'm bent over a bit.

My custom fit frame extends me, keeping me low (it's more comfortable). It happens to allow me to be a bit more aero, but my primary concern was to be able to reach far enough to the bars and to keep my back comfortable on my longer rides. I got that with a weird proportioned frame that matches my weird proportion body.

In other words, to do "race fit" shouldn't be much different from a regular fit. My size 41 shoes fit well. Would I get 40.5s to get a more snug, more aggressive fit? No, it would be uncomfortable.

My bike fits me well. Would I position my bars higher or closer just because I wasn't racing? No. It would be less comfortable.
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Old 10-09-11, 09:49 AM
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The reason I'm asking is because I was looking for a second bike as a backup and an entry carbon one. I'm not thinking about a smaller lookin bike for appearance but rather possible aero and handling advantages because I see it often.

I'm riding a 60 in a CAAD10 right now as my main bike if you want to compare the geometry specs.

The most saddle to handlbar drop I can get with the stock stem is 8cm with all the spacers rearranged. I'm fairly flexible and the 8cm drop seems pretty good. However I have to mention that I've had a back injury in the past and I can't use it to extend and power through in sprint position like I used to so I spend a lot of time in the saddle anyways.

The wheelbase is actually about the same/shorter than the L Giant TCR so it's not that in terms of what I'm feeling. Headtube length is roughly the same too. Standover is about 2 inches lower on the Giant.

I don't know why but the TCR just felt lower and more agile, but the sensitivity and I guess twitchy feeling of the bike was foreign to me, especially out of the saddle. I just wanted to know if this was something that I would learn to control because I don't feel that sensitivity on my CAAD and other more traditional 60 frames I've had.

Last edited by speedqing; 10-09-11 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 10-09-11, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by speedqing View Post
The reason I'm asking is because I was looking for a second bike as a backup and an entry carbon one. I'm not thinking about a smaller lookin bike for appearance but rather possible aero and handling advantages because I see it often.

I'm riding a 60 in a CAAD10 right now as my main bike if you want to compare the geometry specs.

The most saddle to handlbar drop I can get with the stock stem is 8cm with all the spacers rearranged. I'm fairly flexible and the 8cm drop seems pretty good. However I have to mention that I've had a back injury in the past and I can't use it to extend and power through in sprint position like I used to so I spend a lot of time in the saddle anyways.

The wheelbase is actually about the same/shorter than the L Giant TCR so it's not that in terms of what I'm feeling. Headtube length is roughly the same too. Standover is about 2 inches lower on the Giant.

I don't know why but the TCR just felt lower and more agile, but the sensitivity and I guess twitchy feeling of the bike was foreign to me, especially out of the saddle. I just wanted to know if this was something that I would learn to control because I don't feel that sensitivity on my CAAD and other more traditional 60 frames I've had.
A plausible explaination for the difference you feel is what is called trail...which is a function of heat tube angle, fork rake and wheel base.
What happens when you are out of the saddle is you rock the bike from side to side creating mini turns. If the bike has a shorter trail which I suspect the smaller Giant does...with perhaps a more upright head tube angle and slightly shorter wheelbase than the Cannondale...then the bike will turn more quickly making it feel less stable out of the saddle. That would be my opinion without closely studing the geometry of the each bike. It really doesn't have as much to do with a single size difference...more a geometry difference between the two bikes. The book on the TCR is...it is a pure race bike...and that means almost twitchy handling that many good riders prefer. An average rider may find it a bit nervous however. If you want a confirmation to the above, post the geometry for your current bike as well as the TCR.
HTH.

Last edited by Campag4life; 10-09-11 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 10-09-11, 05:16 PM
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One thing to check: When you're standing and in the drops, you can put a lot of weight on the front wheel. If the tire pressure is a bit low, it can make handling pretty squirrelly as you rock back and forth pedaling. For me with my setup, 100 psi is good and 90 gets squirrelly. The actual pressure for you is going to depend on your weight, steering geometry of the bike, tire/size, etc. Bikes with quick steering are more affected.
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Old 10-09-11, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
A plausible explaination for the difference you feel is what is called trail...which is a function of heat tube angle, fork rake and wheel base.
What happens when you are out of the saddle is you rock the bike from side to side creating mini turns. If the bike has a shorter trail which I suspect the smaller Giant does...with perhaps a more upright head tube angle and slightly shorter wheelbase than the Cannondale...then the bike will turn more quickly making it feel less stable out of the saddle. That would be my opinion without closely studing the geometry of the each bike. It really doesn't have as much to do with a single size difference...more a geometry difference between the two bikes. The book on the TCR is...it is a pure race bike...and that means almost twitchy handling that many good riders prefer. An average rider may find it a bit nervous however. If you want a confirmation to the above, post the geometry for your current bike as well as the TCR.
HTH.
Hmm ok well that would make sense. Here is the geometry for both bikes, it's the 60 for the CAAD and the Large for the TCR
CAAD. Looigi I didn't check the tire pressures so I'm not sure what I was riding on.


TCR
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Old 10-09-11, 09:29 PM
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It sounds similar to a 'problem" I had a few years back with a compact frame. Even though I knew better, the lbs convinced me that all I needed to match the bike position was to add a longer stem. But it never felt right. Then one day I noticed when I sprinted, or more importantly, was climbing out of the saddle, my shoulders were over the front spindle. I decided that a compact frame wasn't for me, at least not that compact frame.
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Old 10-09-11, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by speedqing View Post

Cons: Didn't feel like I was getting as much power in the saddle for some reason (obviously haven't been properly fit at this point), it didn't feel as stable and when I decided to try and get up off my butt and sprint in the drops the bike just totally started rocking side to side like crazy and I almost fell (which never really happens on my other bikes).

Are the cons I noticed just a result of me not knowing how to distribute my weight or handle a smaller bike? Is it better to just stick to what I'm used to or would I get used to a smaller sized frame?
It takes time to get all the neurons and muscles firing in the right order after you've changed your position, that's all. Read about it in Steve Hogg's bike fitting web site, http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/. The blog and articles are especially helpful.

By the way, the only thing that makes a frame "compact" is the short seat tube, slanted top tube, and long seat post. The riding position is the same as on a trad frame. I've been riding a TCR (M/L 'cause I'm a bit shorter) for two seasons now and I have to say in the 40 years I've been riding this is the best fitting, most comfortable bike I've ever been on.

Last edited by oldbobcat; 10-09-11 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 10-10-11, 04:12 AM
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The head tube is slightly more slack with the 60 CAAD and the CAAD has fractionally longer seat stays..but they are measured a bit different.
OP...a concept lost on many including mandopickr...but bobcat gets it is...compact geometry has nothing to do with handling. All compact geometry is...the top tube slopes down for friendlier standover that allows mfrs to create less carbon fiber molds that will fit more riders. It still comes down to the geometry of the bike...virtually all the metrics on the geometry chart...not that the top tube is sloping.
Also the Giant will ride shorter because it has a more slack sta which effectively shortens the measured top tube length when putting the saddle in the same position relative to the BB compared to the CAAD. The Giant is a good geometry for guys like me with long legs because of the slack sta...one of the things I like about Giant bikes in particular.
My view on this is...either sell your CAAD and get a 58 or get the Giant in 58. But there is no foul at your size to riding a 60 CAAD it will just be not quite as sporty as a slightly smaller bike. Not everybody loves the handling of the TCR btw...some prefer a bit more steady bike but Giant really knows what they are doing and as Bobcat mentioned the TCR is one of the best valued carbon fiber race bikes out there.
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Old 10-10-11, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
The head tube is slightly more slack with the 60 CAAD and the CAAD has fractionally longer seat stays..but they are measured a bit different.
OP...a concept lost on many including mandopickr...but bobcat gets it is...compact geometry has nothing to do with handling. All compact geometry is...the top tube slopes down for friendlier standover that allows mfrs to create less carbon fiber molds that will fit more riders. It still comes down to the geometry of the bike...virtually all the metrics on the geometry chart...not that the top tube is sloping.
Also the Giant will ride shorter because it has a more slack sta which effectively shortens the measured top tube length when putting the saddle in the same position relative to the BB compared to the CAAD. The Giant is a good geometry for guys like me with long legs because of the slack sta...one of the things I like about Giant bikes in particular.
My view on this is...either sell your CAAD and get a 58 or get the Giant in 58. But there is no foul at your size to riding a 60 CAAD it will just be not quite as sporty as a slightly smaller bike. Not everybody loves the handling of the TCR btw...some prefer a bit more steady bike but Giant really knows what they are doing and as Bobcat mentioned the TCR is one of the best valued carbon fiber race bikes out there.
Wow 0.5 deg can make that big a difference with STA? Yeah no doubt I'm happy with my CAAD in 60, feels like it wants to gogogo and it's comfortable. Yeah with the TCR I was just wondering if it was just me being new to the bike and the handling. I know of a TCR on clearance in L but I'd have to wait a little bit to find an XL.
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Old 10-10-11, 08:42 PM
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the top tube slopes down for friendlier standover that allows mfrs to create less carbon fiber molds that will fit more riders
My point exactly. Some, not all compact frames are a compromise on sizing. I said nothing about the top tube slant, as the slant has no direct bearing on fit.
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Old 10-10-11, 09:10 PM
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id get the tcr.
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Old 10-11-11, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by speedqing View Post
Wow 0.5 deg can make that big a difference with STA? Yeah no doubt I'm happy with my CAAD in 60, feels like it wants to gogogo and it's comfortable. Yeah with the TCR I was just wondering if it was just me being new to the bike and the handling. I know of a TCR on clearance in L but I'd have to wait a little bit to find an XL.
Again...at 6'1", I believe the correct size for you in a TCR is the L and not XL. I am your size and can even ride the M/L TCR...buddy has one and I can ride it fine. A XL is really for an XL guy and you are just a Large guy like me...XL for 6'2"-6'4" or so.
The CAAD 10 is arguably the best Al race bike in the world...again...you are sized up to a 60. Most guys your size who race in particular would be on a 58. Most of us can ride 1 size up frame and 1 size down frame from our nominal or best size which can be accomodated by seat post and stem adjustment.
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