Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

2012 Di2 to be 11 speed?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

2012 Di2 to be 11 speed?

Old 10-20-11, 03:04 PM
  #51  
nhluhr
John Wayne Toilet Paper
 
nhluhr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Roanoke
Posts: 1,951

Bikes: BH carbon, Ritchey steel, Kona aluminum

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pallen View Post
thats the first I've heard of that complaint. Is that because you have to move the spokes closer together on the hub to make room for the disk?

I didnt notice any lack of stiffness on my Kona, but it was far from a high end racing bike.
precisely. We've also all grown pretty accustomed to seeing radial low-spoke count front wheels and radial on one of the sides in a rear. Radial is cool because it makes a slightly better bracing angle and is lighter weight. You can't use full radial with disks, and I'm guessing you'll want both sides of a rear wheel to be crossed as well.

Again, disks are AWESOME for commuting/touring/rain bikes. I'd love it if my commuter had them instead of ****ty tektro dual-pivots, but on my road bike I don't see the point.

Last edited by nhluhr; 10-20-11 at 03:11 PM.
nhluhr is offline  
Old 10-20-11, 03:11 PM
  #52  
pallen 
Descends like a rock
 
pallen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 4,022

Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
well, my road bike has 36 spoke wheels and not radial, so bring em on
pallen is offline  
Old 10-20-11, 03:34 PM
  #53  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 20,611

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 609 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
precisely. We've also all grown pretty accustomed to seeing radial low-spoke count front wheels and radial on one of the sides in a rear. Radial is cool because ....
Let me stop you there and assure you that the correct answer to what you posed here is "because it's cool." Nothing more.

Read whatever theory you want to on differential lacings on wheels. For every theory that says "radial non-drive side is better because..." there is a direct theory that contradicts it. In the end - I have personally seen just about every single mixed lacing rear where one side is radial - fail. I have also watched it long enough to seem companies that make a ton of pre-builts - go BACK and forth on it. Thing is....2x and 3x are still around....BECAUSE THEY WORK, WORK WELL, WORK BETTER.

When using radial on a road application there is a lot of sacrifices and little "gain". The only discernible benefits are as follows: Better aerodynamics. Lower weight.

Drawbacks include - no ability to efficiently transmit torque from the rim to hub or visa-versa - making it impossible for disc brake use, Higher flange stress, lowered lateral stiffness

Why is radial used? You said it yourself - "Radial is cool..." Period.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 10-20-11, 04:20 PM
  #54  
nhluhr
John Wayne Toilet Paper
 
nhluhr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Roanoke
Posts: 1,951

Bikes: BH carbon, Ritchey steel, Kona aluminum

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Let me stop you there and assure you that the correct answer to what you posed here is "because it's cool." Nothing more.

Read whatever theory you want to on differential lacings on wheels. For every theory that says "radial non-drive side is better because..." there is a direct theory that contradicts it. In the end - I have personally seen just about every single mixed lacing rear where one side is radial - fail. I have also watched it long enough to seem companies that make a ton of pre-builts - go BACK and forth on it. Thing is....2x and 3x are still around....BECAUSE THEY WORK, WORK WELL, WORK BETTER.

When using radial on a road application there is a lot of sacrifices and little "gain". The only discernible benefits are as follows: Better aerodynamics. Lower weight.

Drawbacks include - no ability to efficiently transmit torque from the rim to hub or visa-versa - making it impossible for disc brake use, Higher flange stress, lowered lateral stiffness

Why is radial used? You said it yourself - "Radial is cool..." Period.
What the hell point are you trying to make except repeating exactly what I said?
nhluhr is offline  
Old 10-20-11, 05:39 PM
  #55  
StanSeven
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,146

Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 605 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 40 Posts
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
What the hell point are you trying to make except repeating exactly what I said?
What is wrong? Psimet provided lots of useful information in his post.
StanSeven is online now  
Old 10-20-11, 05:50 PM
  #56  
pallen 
Descends like a rock
 
pallen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 4,022

Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
What the hell point are you trying to make except repeating exactly what I said?
I think his point was that not having radial laced spokes is no reason to not want disc brakes
pallen is offline  
Old 10-20-11, 06:15 PM
  #57  
gundom66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 661

Bikes: Trek 4300 Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Somehow, the wheels on the Volagi seems to work well with the disc brakes. And again, after reading a few reviews on it, when talking about the disc brakes, they talk about all-weather usage and the lack of carbon rim blowouts on very long descents. I'm for it, and if it becomes a standard, then so be it. Change is good, and as one reviewer said, discs on road bikes are way overdue.
gundom66 is offline  
Old 10-20-11, 11:02 PM
  #58  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 20,611

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 609 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
What the hell point are you trying to make except repeating exactly what I said?
I was referring to:

Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
Radial is cool because it makes a slightly better bracing angle
My statement is that theories that state "radial makes a slightly better bracing angle" are sound in principal when on paper but don't play out in reality. The track record of prebuilt designs backs that up, and the continuance of 2X 2X lacings is further proof. If radial a-symmetrical lacing was better in any real world way then it would be a no brianer for every wheel to be done that way - period.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 02:12 AM
  #59  
embankmentlb
Senior Member
 
embankmentlb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North, Ga.
Posts: 2,015

Bikes: Bernard Hinault Look - 1986 tour winner, Guerciotti, Various Klein's & Panasonic's

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts
I think there is a reason we have seen very few road bikes with disks. After all, all the parts exist. What I have heard is that the ride characteristics are not positive with a disk fork. The front disc generates vibrations that transfer through a light carbon fork that make for a frightening feeling stoping from speed. A heavy fork from say a tandem has less vibration when stopping but makes a horrible ride when on a single. The beefy fork also adds weight to the bike.
embankmentlb is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 06:21 AM
  #60  
JimF22003
Senior Member
 
JimF22003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,654

Bikes: 2008 Trek Madone 5.5, 2009 Cervelo R3SL tdf edition, Cervelo R5 with Di2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Is there anything interesting or beneficial that wheel makers could do with rims that didn't require a brake track?
JimF22003 is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 09:14 AM
  #61  
FlashBazbo
Chases Dogs for Sport
 
FlashBazbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 4,083

Bikes: BMC SLR01 TeamMachine Disk Di2; OPEN new U.P. Di2

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 840 Post(s)
Liked 37 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by embankmentlb View Post
I think there is a reason we have seen very few road bikes with disks. After all, all the parts exist. What I have heard is that the ride characteristics are not positive with a disk fork. The front disc generates vibrations that transfer through a light carbon fork that make for a frightening feeling stoping from speed. A heavy fork from say a tandem has less vibration when stopping but makes a horrible ride when on a single. The beefy fork also adds weight to the bike.
Nice theory, but it doesn't hold up. I have a light carbon fork on my disk-braked trekking bike. It brakes smoothly. If anything, more smoothly and surely than the rim brakes on my Tarmac. very confidence-inspiring.

I think you don't see more road bikes with disk brakes because the pros don't ride them. If Team Nissan mounted them up next season, 95% of BFers would have them within 18 months.
FlashBazbo is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 09:15 AM
  #62  
FlashBazbo
Chases Dogs for Sport
 
FlashBazbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 4,083

Bikes: BMC SLR01 TeamMachine Disk Di2; OPEN new U.P. Di2

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 840 Post(s)
Liked 37 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by JimF22003 View Post
Is there anything interesting or beneficial that wheel makers could do with rims that didn't require a brake track?
Make them lighter and thinner.
FlashBazbo is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 10:03 AM
  #63  
nhluhr
John Wayne Toilet Paper
 
nhluhr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Roanoke
Posts: 1,951

Bikes: BH carbon, Ritchey steel, Kona aluminum

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I was referring to:



My statement is that theories that state "radial makes a slightly better bracing angle" are sound in principal when on paper but don't play out in reality. The track record of prebuilt designs backs that up, and the continuance of 2X 2X lacings is further proof. If radial a-symmetrical lacing was better in any real world way then it would be a no brianer for every wheel to be done that way - period.
Although I tend to agree with your assessment (my favorite wheels are my Shimanos with the double 2x rear), there are thousands of pre-builts from the likes of Mavic, Fulcrum, et al out there getting terrific service life out of their "obviously inferior" spoking. You're not allowing for the huge difference in hub designs, either. Certainly the torsional stiffness of the hub shell makes a huge difference in whether radial drive-side will work. There are clearly some rotten wheels out there (Zipp prebuilts, for example seem flimsy in comparison and I think it's likely the hub's fault. I'd love to get my 404s rebuilt with better hubs)
nhluhr is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 11:03 AM
  #64  
gundom66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 661

Bikes: Trek 4300 Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If you guys click here, you will notice that Volagi has an upgrade option on wheelsets under 1500 grams. Don't know if that is good or not, but their highest end build without the wheels option puts the bike at about 16.2 pounds without pedals, bottles and cages. To an avid cyclist, that is kind of heavy. I'm sure that once disc brakes become a standard on road bikes, wheel manufacturers will start looking into ways of making it more lighter and sturdier. Also, I'm sure brake manufacturers will do the same - lighter with better stopping power. And same goes with the fork issue. Again, people who have tested the Volagi are very happy with how it handles overall.

I think I read somewhere or heard from someone regarding last years Interbike when Volagi first introduced to the public the idea of disc brakes. Shimano reps were offended by the idea, yet here they are talking about their very own disc brakes on a road bike. Same goes with my friend who, just a couple of months ago, said that he will stop riding his road bike if this disc becomes a standard. Yesterday he called and I mentioned about Shimano's plans on disc brakes. Suddenly, the winds shifted and he said that despite the "ugliness", he welcomes it and thinks that a lot of the pros will be happy to see that day happen. No more blowouts on long descents due to overheating and more confidence going 60+ mph on a downhill. My jaws just dropped hearing that from him...
gundom66 is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 11:20 AM
  #65  
ilovecycling
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: RTP, NC
Posts: 2,190

Bikes: LOOK 595 & Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
First of all, the disc brake thing is still speculation at this point. It's more likely they will go 11-speed and still allow it to work with regular rim brakes with maybe the option to go disc.

As for my opinion on discs, I don't see weight being a huge problem. It's all relative to the wheels they would run on. There are already crazy wheels out there that weigh less than 1000 grams. With super light wheels adding a little weight for the discs isn't going to hurt as much as it would help on the descents. Don't forget you also get to subtract the weight of current road calipers and any extra material at the brake track. That's all free weight that can be worked with for a disc brake setup. Granted, it's weight off the bike and discs add rotational weight at the wheels, but it's close to the center of the wheel which makes a significantly smaller difference than placing extra weight toward the outside of the wheel by the rim.

Last edited by ilovecycling; 10-21-11 at 11:25 AM.
ilovecycling is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 06:50 PM
  #66  
embankmentlb
Senior Member
 
embankmentlb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North, Ga.
Posts: 2,015

Bikes: Bernard Hinault Look - 1986 tour winner, Guerciotti, Various Klein's & Panasonic's

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Nice theory, but it doesn't hold up. I have a light carbon fork on my disk-braked trekking bike. It brakes smoothly. If anything, more smoothly and surely than the rim brakes on my Tarmac. very confidence-inspiring.

I think you don't see more road bikes with disk brakes because the pros don't ride them. If Team Nissan mounted them up next season, 95% of BFers would have them within 18 months.
I agree that if Armstrong was on disks everyone would jump on board. Why don't the Madones have disks?
embankmentlb is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 07:07 PM
  #67  
znomit
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
 
znomit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 3,798

Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Scott Sub 35

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked 54 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by embankmentlb View Post
I agree that if Armstrong was on disks everyone would jump on board. Why don't the Madones have disks?
Armstrong was on a lot of things that others weren't
znomit is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 08:01 PM
  #68  
FlashBazbo
Chases Dogs for Sport
 
FlashBazbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 4,083

Bikes: BMC SLR01 TeamMachine Disk Di2; OPEN new U.P. Di2

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 840 Post(s)
Liked 37 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by embankmentlb View Post
I agree that if Armstrong was on disks everyone would jump on board. Why don't the Madones have disks?
Because you couldn't race with them in UCI competition.
FlashBazbo is offline  
Old 10-21-11, 09:44 PM
  #69  
DinoShepherd
cycle-dog spot
 
DinoShepherd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,539

Bikes: Look, Niner, Ellsworth, Norco, Litespeed

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Because you couldn't race with them in UCI competition.
Just legal for Cross this year. Very exciting for many of us, probably not so much for the crew here.
DinoShepherd is offline  
Old 10-22-11, 12:35 AM
  #70  
gundom66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 661

Bikes: Trek 4300 Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DinoShepherd View Post
Just legal for Cross this year. Very exciting for many of us, probably not so much for the crew here.
Yup! And that's one step closer...
gundom66 is offline  
Old 10-22-11, 03:02 AM
  #71  
Braden1550
Senior Member
 
Braden1550's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 550

Bikes: I hate bikes.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Why hasn't some clever electronic genius hacked Di2 to change the der. movement ratio to suit campy 11sp spacing? Add campy 11sp chain, cassette...ouila

BTW I have 2011 Super Record, came from 11sp Chorus, and prior to that...only shimano. I like the extra gear. I notice having it. You can tell me all you want that it's pointless, but until you've put an equivalent number of kilometers in on it...what the hell would you know?
Braden1550 is offline  
Old 10-22-11, 06:30 AM
  #72  
embankmentlb
Senior Member
 
embankmentlb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North, Ga.
Posts: 2,015

Bikes: Bernard Hinault Look - 1986 tour winner, Guerciotti, Various Klein's & Panasonic's

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Because you couldn't race with them in UCI competition.
I am pretty sure most of us here don't ride strictly UCI legal equipment. What is stopping any of you from building your on road bike with a disk? It seems to be the ultimate upgrade. A front disc would be easy to do to any bike.
Manufactures make almost all of their bikes without a thought of UCI. Again, easy disk up grade. Why don't we see more bikes with disks? It can't be cost, even cheep mountain & path bikes have disks.

It's all about the ride qualities.
embankmentlb is offline  
Old 10-22-11, 06:55 AM
  #73  
Butcher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 495

Bikes: 2005 S-Works SR Equipped,1978 Tom Ritchie Road bike, Kuwahara Tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Braden1550 View Post
Why hasn't some clever electronic genius hacked Di2 to change the der. movement ratio to suit campy 11sp spacing? Add campy 11sp chain, cassette...ouila

BTW I have 2011 Super Record, came from 11sp Chorus, and prior to that...only shimano. I like the extra gear. I notice having it. You can tell me all you want that it's pointless, but until you've put an equivalent number of kilometers in on it...what the hell would you know?
I too have a SR11 groupset as well as a Ch11. As long and the shifting is set up right, there is none better.
Butcher is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Gurgus
Foo
32
03-13-09 06:48 PM
concernicus
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
1
03-02-06 08:28 PM
slone130
Introductions
0
11-25-04 01:59 PM
MoshB
BMX
0
03-20-02 12:43 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.