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How many spokes?

Old 10-21-11, 10:25 PM
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lazerzxr
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How many spokes?

I think the time to get a power tap may have finally arrived. I'm an engineer and see lots of problems with pedal based systems, I for one will not be an early adopter therefore I see a power tap as the best way to go for me.

Im currently on fulcrum zeros with 21 spokes at the back - no problems
Previously I have had 24 and 28 spoke rear wheels and have not had any problem with either really except the 28 spoke on cracked the rim near some of the eyelets, probably due to being over tensioned when new.

I'm 6"3 and weigh 75 kg, no matter how much I eat or train I am always 75kg so no need to allow for more weight in the wheel build

Im thinking maybe a 28 / 24 set up on open pros with a dura ace front hub. Not decided yet whether to go G3 or the new 2012 pro.

Sound ok or whould i be better with 32 spoke? They will be my every day training wheels....

Cheers
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Old 10-22-11, 12:06 AM
  #2  
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Originally Posted by lazerzxr View Post
I think the time to get a power tap may have finally arrived. I'm an engineer and see lots of problems with pedal based systems, I for one will not be an early adopter therefore I see a power tap as the best way to go for me.

Im currently on fulcrum zeros with 21 spokes at the back - no problems
Previously I have had 24 and 28 spoke rear wheels and have not had any problem with either really except the 28 spoke on cracked the rim near some of the eyelets, probably due to being over tensioned when new.

I'm 6"3 and weigh 75 kg, no matter how much I eat or train I am always 75kg so no need to allow for more weight in the wheel build

Im thinking maybe a 28 / 24 set up on open pros with a dura ace front hub. Not decided yet whether to go G3 or the new 2012 pro.
Neuvation will sell you a 2011 SL+ (which weighs 30 grams less than the 2012 pro) built into a Kinlin rim for $695. Pick 24/28/32 spokes, pay a bit more for upgrades like bladed spokes.
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Old 10-22-11, 01:46 AM
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The other option that crossed my mind was some Mavic Cosmic Carbones with a powertap, but cant bring myself to ride wheels with "cosmic" written on them in big letters. I'm not that worried about looks but for me thats too Dorky, anyone know if the decals can be removed?
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Old 10-22-11, 05:15 AM
  #4  
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Have you considered a Quarq or SRM? That way, you can run whatever wheels you want.
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Old 10-22-11, 07:04 AM
  #5  
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You may have issues with pedal based systems but since you are an engineer, you may appreciate that I have had 3 sets of bearings in my first hub and 2 sets in my second hub [SL+]. I would not buy another powertap hub since there is no real way to set up the bearings. I believe they have a poor design which loads the bearings too much. Maybe their newer hub is better, but I would not want to be the beta tester for that. The shipping alone cost me an additional $150 for the warranty work.

By the way, the first hub had less than 800 miles and had 3 sets of bearings, the second a little better at 1000 miles with two sets of bearings.
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Old 10-22-11, 07:59 AM
  #6  
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Seems like OP has a sense of what causes spoke/rim failures.

At 75 kg (165 lbs) you'll be fine on even fewer spokes, depending on the rim. I use an 18/24 set of wheels (HED Bastogne, now named some Ardennes thing), 23c tires, weight from 155-175+. I usually don't bend rims so I have some knowledge on how to ride, but I don't go easy on my wheels. I did probably 3k miles on them in 2010, half that in 2011.

I rode 18/20 wheels (but aero profile - DV46 clinchers and tubulars) at 180-200 lbs, did break one spoke in a front, one in a rear, and was okay on them for a couple years. They're still going strong 2 years later, one under a teammate (175-185), another under various other teammates (similar weights).
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Old 10-22-11, 08:39 AM
  #7  
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With low profile rims you need more spokes. Lower profile rims are less stiff so they need more support.

Open Pros are well into the less stiff category. In fact they are kind of floppy. You'd do better to use KinLin XR270s, which are both stiffer and lighter. Open Pros list at 440g but I have seen recent reports of them coming in at 20+ grams over.

You can't go by weight alone when determining a durable wheel construction. The kind of riding you do and your riding style have an effect on how hard you are on wheels. If you ride a lot of steep climbs and ride out of the saddle a lot your rear wheel will get much more stress than one under someone who does mostly flat or gentler slopes and stays in the saddle.
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Old 10-22-11, 01:01 PM
  #8  
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OPs were great rims in 1998. Now, not so much. Fewer spokes on a lighter, more aero, modern rim will be at least as durable, less likely to crack at the eyelets and weigh less. They're also easier to build and maintain. Just keep in mind that Cycleops recommends at least 2x lacing on the NDS.

If you race, you'll also want to use your PT for racing so keep that in mind as well.
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Old 10-22-11, 01:54 PM
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Op's still are great rims. I have five sets with various hub/spoke set ups from the '80s through 2009. Never had a crack or any issues. Most problems start with the build.
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Old 10-22-11, 02:21 PM
  #10  
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"Paging Mr. Psimet. Mr. Psimet to the white courtesy telephone, please. Paging Mr. Psimet..."
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Old 10-22-11, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DScott View Post
"Paging Mr. Psimet. Mr. Psimet to the white courtesy telephone, please. Paging Mr. Psimet..."
Another guy with another opinion. We have all been down this road before... and nothing has changed.
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Old 10-22-11, 02:49 PM
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FWIW, I am 70kg and I'm going with 28 spoke for my PT with Hed C2 or Velocity A23.
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Old 10-22-11, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jdon View Post
Op's still are great rims. I have five sets with various hub/spoke set ups from the '80s through 2009. Never had a crack or any issues. Most problems start with the build.
Oh, you can build a good wheel with an OP and it probably won't even creak, but why would you want to? There are better, cheaper, lighter options.
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Old 10-22-11, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
Oh, you can build a good wheel with an OP and it probably won't even creak, but why would you want to? There are better, cheaper, lighter options.
Cheaper and lighter- sure.
Better- opinion.
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Old 10-22-11, 04:27 PM
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24/28 if not aero for regular riding. 20/24 if not aero for special event use
20/24 if aero for regular riding. 16/20 if aero for special event use
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Old 10-22-11, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jdon View Post
Cheaper and lighter- sure.
Better- opinion.
It's also my opinion that a carbon road bike is generally a better option than a penny farthing for fast road rides, but some people disagree.
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Old 10-22-11, 04:52 PM
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28 or 32 spoke velocity a23 with powertap would be a really strong build, i love my a23's laced 24/28 to white industries
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Old 10-22-11, 06:08 PM
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From what I have read, stick to at least 28h with a PT. I think it has something to do with the differing tension on the DS vs NDS spokes (I'm no expert here). I myself have a 24h PT and 28h PT, I weigh 135lbs and the 24h has been an issue to keep true...The 28h has been much, much better...

I've set the 24h aside for race day action. Both wheels were built by PSIMET with Kinlin 30mm rims.
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Old 10-22-11, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
It's also my opinion that a carbon road bike is generally a better option than a penny farthing for fast road rides, but some people disagree.
See, I would agree with your opinion there.
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Old 10-22-11, 06:33 PM
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75 kilograms.





In 41speak that's what, 215 lb?
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Old 10-22-11, 08:43 PM
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Thanks for your help all. Some comments on above:
I want to go power tap because I have a mix of standard BB and BB30 on my bikes and I want the option of using power on all without creaking adaptors on the BB30.
Good point about deeper rims, I'll see what is available locally.
I think 28 holes sopunds like a good option without being over conservative or too weenie.
The comment about bearings and the idea of sending things back does worry me. I like to know my bike is clean, well set up, fully functioning and ready to go at all times so reliability is important. Ive been temted with crank based power but like i say BB30 on my number 2 is putting me off.
Pedal based power will be impressive is they get it working but I see many accuracy issues. The other thing is i run speedplay for their lesser stack height - helps reduce my bar drop. Garmin pedals look they have more stack and I cant imagine the zone comes with the same stack as regular speedplay so i dont think pedals are the way for me to go,

Anyone got any info on the new G3 in terms of what has been changed? They look much lighter (dont really care) but they also say "user servicable electronics" Could mean that the guts can be removed and sent back without needing to rebuild the wheel? That would be a big plus in my book
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Old 10-29-11, 06:14 AM
  #22  
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Thats it, done. New G3 on its way 28 hole, haven't decided on the rim yet but it will probably be a cxp33 just because ive always had mavic and i reckon they will be plenty strong. Also went for a 24 hole Chris King front.

Cant wait to get it now!

Feel the POWER!
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Old 10-29-11, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
You may have issues with pedal based systems but since you are an engineer, you may appreciate that I have had 3 sets of bearings in my first hub and 2 sets in my second hub [SL+]. I would not buy another powertap hub since there is no real way to set up the bearings. I believe they have a poor design which loads the bearings too much. Maybe their newer hub is better, but I would not want to be the beta tester for that. The shipping alone cost me an additional $150 for the warranty work.

By the way, the first hub had less than 800 miles and had 3 sets of bearings, the second a little better at 1000 miles with two sets of bearings.
Ditto. Saris has great customer service, but I shouldn't have to use their services as much as I have used them. Im seriously considering the Garmin Vector, and Quarq is also a possibility.
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Old 10-29-11, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by lazerzxr View Post
Thats it, done. New G3 on its way 28 hole, haven't decided on the rim yet but it will probably be a cxp33 just because ive always had mavic and i reckon they will be plenty strong. Also went for a 24 hole Chris King front.

Cant wait to get it now!

Feel the POWER!
FWIW, IMO (and experience) the DT Swiss RR 585 is a better rim than the CXP 33. The CXP33 isn't much if any better than the Kinlins on my Neuvation wheels.

I'd say either get the RR 585 for about the same price as the CXP33, or get something cheaper than the CXP 33 and just as good.
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Old 10-29-11, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by lazerzxr View Post
Thats it, done. New G3 on its way 28 hole, haven't decided on the rim yet but it will probably be a cxp33 just because ive always had mavic and i reckon they will be plenty strong. Also went for a 24 hole Chris King front.

Cant wait to get it now!

Feel the POWER!
Excellent. Given your needs (wants), the G3 hub sounds like a great option.
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