Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Fibromyalgia Advise

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Fibromyalgia Advise

Old 11-15-11, 08:20 PM
  #101  
Dudelsack 
A might bewildered...
 
Dudelsack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Loovul in summer. Jensen Beach in Winter.
Posts: 6,623

Bikes: Bacchetta Giro ATT 26; Lemond Buenos Aires; Trek/Electra Townie Mega E bike.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 70 Times in 32 Posts
Hate to get in the middle of a proper flame war......

......if I might: some of the confusion is this: there are differences between diseases, syndromes, and disorders.

Diseases are well-defined entities with either a known etiology or at least a widely agreed upon set of diagnostic criteria.

Syndromes are a group of related signs and symptoms which may or may not share a common etiology.

Fibromyalgia is a syndrome, which means that sufferers may or may not have a common set of causes. Often as medical science progresses, what appears to be "a syndrome" ends up representing a variety of different diseases.

"Bright's Disease" is the classic example.

I believe the FS is likely to represent a variety of different disorders, which is why there is no uniform, standard therapy. But I might be wrong.
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit.



Dudelsack is offline  
Old 11-15-11, 08:33 PM
  #102  
pdedes
ka maté ka maté ka ora
 
pdedes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: wessex
Posts: 4,423

Bikes: breezer venturi - red novo bosberg - red, pedal force cg1 - red, neuvation f-100 - da, devinci phantom - xt, miele piste - miche/campy, bianchi reparto corse sbx, concorde squadra tsx - da, miele team issue sl - ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Read through the whole thread (an in-law has it), are anti-depressants or sleep aids commonly prescribed for FM?
pdedes is offline  
Old 11-15-11, 08:45 PM
  #103  
Focuspokus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pdedes View Post
Read through the whole thread (an in-law has it), are anti-depressants or sleep aids commonly prescribed for FM?
Yes they are. Then you add the Percocet/Oxycontin and Vicodin on top of that. This is my experience with hundreds of Fibromyalgia patients through the years.
Focuspokus is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 10:17 AM
  #104  
RUOkie
Scarlet Knight
 
RUOkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a Haggard Song
Posts: 11,271

Bikes: 2009 ORBEA Onix Rival. 2012 Felt Breed, 1999 Raleigh 500

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Focuspokus View Post
Yes they are. Then you add the Percocet/Oxycontin and Vicodin on top of that. This is my experience with hundreds of Fibromyalgia patients through the years.
opiates have been shown to worsen prognosis in FM. Since you are a doctor who is an expert in the syndrome, I figured you already knew that.
RUOkie is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 10:24 AM
  #105  
Focuspokus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RUOkie View Post
opiates have been shown to worsen prognosis in FM. Since you are a doctor who is an expert in the syndrome, I figured you already knew that.
I am not a physician, stated I was not earlier on. But I can tell you that the physicians almost invariably prescribe the whole array of pain meds to quiet the FM patients. Like it or not, I have a lot of years of practical experience in healthcare environments and can tell you first hand the typical FM patient, treatment and outcomes. Most are obese and on many pain killers.
Focuspokus is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 11:12 AM
  #106  
rapnjoe
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The intestinal bacteria thing does have some credibility among the fibro community.I think it is more of an effect than a cause. Due to the the way your muscle stay tight it is believed that you can get more bacteria build up in your upper intestines.Allot of fibro people feel some what better on a low carb diet.
I do a 3-4 day fast at least yearly and when I change up meds.You will probally find when you come off the meds side effects are worse than going on.
With fibro you will have allot of 1 step forward 2+ backwards,Meds can definitely help but don't abuse them or try to rely to much on them.
It hard to explain but if you can't sleep and you go on Lyrica and you start feeling better and sleeping better,and than start pushing yourself harder next thing you know you can't sleep again you feel bad again and the lyrica does seem to work.

My brother is a 40+,45+,50+ masters champion WHEN I ride with his buds he usually gets comments like" man your brothers fast why doesn't he race"

I can never be as fast or reliable as him,but I can still do a race here and there,or go ride with racers on occasion.

This is a good resource :https://www.fmnetnews.com/

The 5htp is a good supplement that I use,malic acid& magnesium is another -before a longer ride i will take a magnesium tablet.

I also stretch about 2hrs. a day.
rapnjoe is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 12:36 PM
  #107  
rapnjoe
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Also use all your resources: Ice,heat ,jacuzzi,massage,sauna,(compression,even though I never really felt any benefit I still use recovery socks)
--uphill is definitely what your up against!!
rapnjoe is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 03:23 PM
  #108  
surgeonstone
Senior Member
 
surgeonstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 11,218

Bikes: 1976 FRESCHI, 2004 Crumpton.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Focuspokus View Post
Yes they are. Then you add the Percocet/Oxycontin and Vicodin on top of that. This is my experience with hundreds of Fibromyalgia patients through the years.
No reputable doctor puts fms patients on narcotics. Basic rule of thumb, never use narcotics for chronic pain.
surgeonstone is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 03:48 PM
  #109  
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 21,745

Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1121 Post(s)
Liked 684 Times in 464 Posts
Originally Posted by UpHill101 View Post
Yes they thought it was a autoimmune diease so they tested me for that, and that came up all neg. so my doc. thought it was depression, then after she ruled that out she figured it was FM.

Im a college student (22)who is 6-1.5 and 158 lb. I use to be able to climb like a goat ha and now when I ride hard or long I get a cramp like pain in my legs. I usually get really bad morning aches and pains when I awake everyday. Poor sleep as well...working on that.
Honestly I hope it is something else than FM becasue I want/will find a way to ride competitively again...
I love to ride
Have you had a Lyme disease test ? It has a variety of symptoms similar to what you've described, but also can vary greatly from person to person.

Or seen anyone else for a 2nd opinion ?
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.

FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html

Last edited by Homebrew01; 11-16-11 at 03:54 PM.
Homebrew01 is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 04:26 PM
  #110  
Focuspokus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by surgeonstone View Post
No reputable doctor puts fms patients on narcotics. Basic rule of thumb, never use narcotics for chronic pain.
LOL,
Most of the FMS patients we see (all female and usually at least overweight to obese), "DEMAND" their pain medications. When at our facility as you should know, we can only give pain meds every 4 hours and no sooner, which often angers these patients because at home they self medicate.

Look, I am not being a contrarian for argument's sake, but from my experience with FMS patients, this is the case. One women in her early 60s demanded discharge recently because the attending physician assigned wouldn't increase her Duragesic Patch dosage. Oh well.
Focuspokus is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:03 PM
  #111  
RUOkie
Scarlet Knight
 
RUOkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a Haggard Song
Posts: 11,271

Bikes: 2009 ORBEA Onix Rival. 2012 Felt Breed, 1999 Raleigh 500

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Focuspokus View Post
LOL,
Most of the FMS patients we see (all female and usually at least overweight to obese), "DEMAND" their pain medications. When at our facility as you should know, we can only give pain meds every 4 hours and no sooner, which often angers these patients because at home they self medicate.

Look, I am not being a contrarian for argument's sake, but from my experience with FMS patients, this is the case. One women in her early 60s demanded discharge recently because the attending physician assigned wouldn't increase her Duragesic Patch dosage. Oh well.
why are these doctors treating FM as inpatients? And if someone can go home, they can be discharged. What kind of facility is this? And why are you harping on the fact that they are overweight. YOU may have a problem with your misconceptions about weight.
RUOkie is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:06 PM
  #112  
surgeonstone
Senior Member
 
surgeonstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 11,218

Bikes: 1976 FRESCHI, 2004 Crumpton.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Focuspokus View Post
I am not a physician, stated I was not earlier on. But I can tell you that the physicians almost invariably prescribe the whole array of pain meds to quiet the FM patients. Like it or not, I have a lot of years of practical experience in healthcare environments and can tell you first hand the typical FM patient, treatment and outcomes. Most are obese and on many pain killers.
There you go again.
surgeonstone is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:08 PM
  #113  
surgeonstone
Senior Member
 
surgeonstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 11,218

Bikes: 1976 FRESCHI, 2004 Crumpton.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Have you had a Lyme disease test ? It has a variety of symptoms similar to what you've described, but also can vary greatly from person to person.

Or seen anyone else for a 2nd opinion ?
Interesting point, there is also some research suggesting inadequately treated lyme disease may somehow trigger FMS.
surgeonstone is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:11 PM
  #114  
DScott
It's ALL base...
 
DScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Focuspokus View Post
LOL,
Most of the FMS patients we see (all female and usually at least overweight to obese), "DEMAND" their pain medications. When at our facility as you should know, we can only give pain meds every 4 hours and no sooner, which often angers these patients because at home they self medicate.

Look, I am not being a contrarian for argument's sake, but from my experience with FMS patients, this is the case. One women in her early 60s demanded discharge recently because the attending physician assigned wouldn't increase her Duragesic Patch dosage. Oh well.
What kind of facility is this again? Sounds like it's at least 20 years out of date.
DScott is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:15 PM
  #115  
surgeonstone
Senior Member
 
surgeonstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 11,218

Bikes: 1976 FRESCHI, 2004 Crumpton.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Focuspokus View Post
LOL,
Most of the FMS patients we see (all female and usually at least overweight to obese), "DEMAND" their pain medications. When at our facility as you should know, we can only give pain meds every 4 hours and no sooner, which often angers these patients because at home they self medicate.

Look, I am not being a contrarian for argument's sake, but from my experience with FMS patients, this is the case. One women in her early 60s demanded discharge recently because the attending physician assigned wouldn't increase her Duragesic Patch dosage. Oh well.
Sounds like the doctors you work with are part of the problem. Again, narcotics for chronic pain syndromes can only have a bad outcome and is, IMHO, malpractice.
surgeonstone is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:15 PM
  #116  
DScott
It's ALL base...
 
DScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Then there's this:

From Medscape Medical News

Painful Jaw Condition Linked to Nervous System Dysregulation

Debra Gordon


November 15, 2011 — Patients with temporomandibular disorders (TMD) exhibit a dysregulation of their automatic nervous system that probably contributes to their dysfunctional perception and regulation of pain, according to a study published in the November issue of the Journal of Pain.

The case-control study is part of the multisite Orofacial Pain: Prospective Evaluation and Risk Assessment (OPPERA), which is following 3200 healthy volunteers aged 18 to 44 years for 3 to 5 years. William Maixner, DDS, PhD, director of the Center for Neurosensory Disorders at the University of North Carolina School of Dentistry in Chapel Hill, and coauthors assessed automatic activity at rest and in response to orthostatic and psychological stressors in 185 patients with TMD and 1633 controls.

Patients with TMD demonstrated significantly greater dysfunctional automatic activity, marked by reduced heart rate variability, increased heart rate, and reduced baroreceptor sensitivity, during both stressors. Baroceptor function has been linked to pain sensitivity and psychological function in numerous other studies, including in patients with fibromyalgia syndrome.

Researchers also found that all blood pressure measures except diastolic blood pressure were directly associated with increased age, male gender, and nonwhite race, whereas higher heart rate was associated with female gender and nonwhite race. Most measures of heart rate variability were negatively associated with increased age, particularly in men.

The authors note that the findings add to emerging evidence of a correlation between somatosensory disorders (such as TMD and fibromyalgia syndrome), reduced heart rate variability, and overall automatic activity dysfunction.

"This study represents the culmination of years of converging research establishing that temporomandibular disorders are mediated and amplified in the central nervous system," said Kevin I. Reid, DMD, an assistant professor of dentistry at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, who was not associated with the study. "That is, based on this study and those producing similar findings, it is clear that there are alterations in the way the central nervous system of patients with TMDs process painful and non-painful sensory information in the masticatory system and at sites distant from the site of pain."
Thus, Dr. Reid recommended that TMD be diagnosed and treated with a multidisciplinary approach, as is done for other chronic pain conditions. For TMD, that should involve dental, psychological, physical medicine, and pharmacologic interventions. The study also "offers compelling contrast" to widely used, scientifically unsubstantiated treatments, such as invasive, irreversible dental procedures to alter occlusion, or bite, he said.

The study authors suggest that treatments designed to block the effects of catecholamines (norepinephrine, epinephrine), such as propranolol and other beta-blockers should reduce the pain associated with conditions such as TMD. In addition, exercise, breathing control, intraoral orthotics, and other interventions that improve patients' ability to regulate the autonomic nervous system, such as biofeedback, may also be beneficial.

The study was supported by the National Institutes of Health. This material was also supported by the North Florida/South Georgia Veterans Health System, Gainesville, Florida. The OPPERA program also acknowledged resources specifically provided for this project by the University at Buffalo, University of Florida, University of Maryland-Baltimore, and University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. Study authors Roger Fillingim and Gary Slade are consultants and equity stock holders, and Dr. Maixner and Luda Diatchenko are officers and equity stock holders in Algynomics, Inc. Dr. Reid has disclosed no relevant financial relationships.

J Pain. 2011;12:T75-91. Abstract



And this:

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/753499?src=nl_topic

Haven't viewed the video yet, and you might have to be registered at Medscape to see it, but that shouldn't be a problem for someone in the field.
DScott is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:47 PM
  #117  
milnerpt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 644

Bikes: Scott scale 29er, Gary fisher Rig SS 29er, Fuji Cross pro, Novara Randonee, Scattante TI custom build, Fuji Team

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by surgeonstone View Post
No reputable doctor puts fms patients on narcotics. Basic rule of thumb, never use narcotics for chronic pain.
In my 8 years in healthcare, this is pretty much as far off the mark as you can get from reality... particularly the second part, maybe not so much the first.

Also, its easy to get a diagnosis of FM, but basically impossible to 'take it away'. The diagnosis is completely subjective.

"To meet the fibromyalgia criteria for diagnosis, patients must have:
A. Widespread pain in all four quadrants of the body for a minimum of three months
B. At least 11 of the 18 specified tender points"
milnerpt is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 05:59 PM
  #118  
surgeonstone
Senior Member
 
surgeonstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 11,218

Bikes: 1976 FRESCHI, 2004 Crumpton.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by surgeonstone View Post
No reputable doctor puts fms patients on narcotics. Basic rule of thumb, never use narcotics for chronic pain.
In addition to the addiction issues, FMS is worsened by opiates. This is pretty well known.
surgeonstone is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 06:04 PM
  #119  
surgeonstone
Senior Member
 
surgeonstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 11,218

Bikes: 1976 FRESCHI, 2004 Crumpton.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by milnerpt View Post
In my 8 years in healthcare, this is pretty much as far off the mark as you can get from reality... particularly the second part, maybe not so much the first.

Also, its easy to get a diagnosis of FM, but basically impossible to 'take it away'. The diagnosis is completely subjective.

"To meet the fibromyalgia criteria for diagnosis, patients must have:
A. Widespread pain in all four quadrants of the body for a minimum of three months
B. At least 11 of the 18 specified tender points"
I had an 18 year old girl referred to me for severe , chronic abdominal pain of 6 months duration. Her FP had her on 40 mg Oxycontin 3 times a day. Her problem? Pain secondary to severe constipation secondary to opiate abuse. Spending over 45 minutes telling the mother what was going on and repeating it weekly, I finally got the girl off narcotics, with normal bowel function and miracle of miracles...no pain. That many are on narcotics does not make it right, just convenient and easy. It takes a lot of time to educate patients on the abuse and misuse of narcotics, but it can be done. This nation uses 40 % of the narcotics in the world We can do better.

Last edited by surgeonstone; 11-16-11 at 06:09 PM.
surgeonstone is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 06:05 PM
  #120  
tadawdy
Faster than yesterday
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 1,510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by surgeonstone View Post
In addition to the addiction issues, FMS is worsened by opiates. This is pretty well known.
I assume a form of rebound pain? All chronic pain sufferers run this risk with use of painkillers, if it's the same mechanism.

Last edited by tadawdy; 11-16-11 at 06:13 PM.
tadawdy is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 06:08 PM
  #121  
Focuspokus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by surgeonstone View Post
Sounds like the doctors you work with are part of the problem. Again, narcotics for chronic pain syndromes can only have a bad outcome and is, IMHO, malpractice.
Facts are that 90% of FMS patients are women and up to 75% are overweight to obese. These are facts. I work at a rehab facility where we see all kinds of patients (ortho, cardiac and all others). The majority of FMS patients we see are obese women who have had multiple joint replacement surgeries which they see as a panacea for their aches and pains when it was their weight that contributed to their need for surgery in many cases. None make concerted efforts to lose the weight after surgery and several have come back for subsequent surgeries. They are medicated to the maximum for pain. Yes, we have legitimate osteoarthritis patients who are runners, cyclists that need joint replacements, but many of our obese patients require joint replacement surgeries because of 40+ years of carrying around an extra 150 +lbs on their 5' 11" inch or smaller frames.

Have a 400lb woman now with FMS, CHF, COPD on continuous O2 and sleeps with BiPap. Nurses do accuchek for blood sugar, give her her Novolog and before they are out of room, she's reaching for chocolate candy. She is not atypical from what we see. Now you can say it was her FMS that led to her obesity blah blah blah, but if you are on a cycling forum and know the importance of remaining healthy, then you know that obesity is the gateway to an early grave.

I find that many people seek a "reason" (ie. diagnosis) to justify the state they are in rather than accept the fact that they are contributing to their own demise. Even if the FMS is a legitimate diagnosis, why would someone contribute to their own debilitation? Well, you can further rationalize and say it is depression caused by general medical condition which spirals into bad habits. Blah blah blah.

Look, we aren't talking about something that isn't controllable like Parkinsons, Lymphoma or ALS. As I asked earlier, if 22 year old fit, active adults with healthy diets were the primary group to have Fibromyalgia, then I would be more sympathetic, but that isn't the case and you as physicians know this. And to think that physicians don't overprescribe pain medications to patients to appease them is naive. These patients more often suffer from joint pain, generalized back pain etc and are given pain meds with their FMS.

I always tell people that we are only as good as our genetic blueprint and you cannot necessarily extend your life past whatever is in the cards for us even for the fittest of the fit. (ie. Jim Fixx) However, we can surely reduce our lifespan with bad habits and waste whatever genetic potential there was.
Focuspokus is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 06:14 PM
  #122  
DScott
It's ALL base...
 
DScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by DScott View Post

Patients with TMD demonstrated significantly greater dysfunctional automatic activity, marked by reduced heart rate variability, increased heart rate, and reduced baroreceptor sensitivity, during both stressors. Baroceptor function has been linked to pain sensitivity and psychological function in numerous other studies, including in patients with fibromyalgia syndrome.

Researchers also found that all blood pressure measures except diastolic blood pressure were directly associated with increased age, male gender, and nonwhite race, whereas higher heart rate was associated with female gender and nonwhite race. Most measures of heart rate variability were negatively associated with increased age, particularly in men.

The authors note that the findings add to emerging evidence of a correlation between somatosensory disorders (such as TMD and fibromyalgia syndrome), reduced heart rate variability, and overall automatic activity dysfunction
.

"This study represents the culmination of years of converging research establishing that temporomandibular disorders are mediated and amplified in the central nervous system," said Kevin I. Reid, DMD, an assistant professor of dentistry at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, who was not associated with the study. "That is, based on this study and those producing similar findings, it is clear that there are alterations in the way the central nervous system of patients with TMDs process painful and non-painful sensory information in the masticatory system and at sites distant from the site of pain."

Thus, Dr. Reid recommended that TMD be diagnosed and treated with a multidisciplinary approach, as is done for other chronic pain conditions. For TMD, that should involve dental, psychological, physical medicine, and pharmacologic interventions. The study also "offers compelling contrast" to widely used, scientifically unsubstantiated treatments, such as invasive, irreversible dental procedures to alter occlusion, or bite, he said.

The study authors suggest that treatments designed to block the effects of catecholamines (norepinephrine, epinephrine), such as propranolol and other beta-blockers should reduce the pain associated with conditions such as TMD. In addition, exercise, breathing control, intraoral orthotics, and other interventions that improve patients' ability to regulate the autonomic nervous system, such as biofeedback, may also be beneficial.
[/URL]

Re: chronic narcotic use

Note the area in the referenced article I highlighted.

Persistent/chronic narcotic use is associated with increased central sensitization, which is a major factor in the development of TMD, FM, (and other) chronic pain syndromes.

There are still plenty of providers who haven't gotten the good news. We're finally moving away from the era of "too much narcotic isn't enough". Russ Portnoy did more to set back this field than any other single human being, IMO.

Gorking people out may have been our only option at one point, but not anymore. Smart drug use in the context of true multidisciplinary treatment works, and it works well.

But I digress.
DScott is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 06:22 PM
  #123  
christ0ph
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: currently NYC area, previously, Bay Area
Posts: 501

Bikes: 1974 Raleigh Grand Prix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Low doses of n-acetylcysteine (600 mg in divided doses two or three times a day) and alpha-lippoic acid (100 mg, no more two or three times a day), which are both thiols, and both excellent antioxidants, are also both chelators.

ALA in particular, is really good but you can also overdo it easily by taking too much, if you have heavy metals it may mobilize them. I think they both have helped me a great deal. NAC is sort of an amazing detoxifier.
Does it chelate - clearly, yes. Does it chelate toxic heavy metals out of the brain? Ive read conflicting information.

Still, its great stuff. Its makes people's glutathione status much better, and thats very important.

I've had mixed results with other chelators. I don't know what my body lead status is. Ive had my blood tested and its always been low, but then I have read many times that blood will not show any lead poisoning any older than a few weeks at most. You need to have XRF or a urine challenge test using EDTA and DMPS

You can but succimer on the net but its ludicrously expensive considering what it is. One thing that I have been meaning to try is EDTA in soap, chelation through washing with a chelator. Dont laugh, because a great many toxins do come out in sweat. EDTA in soap will accelerate that process. And I think its safe.

You are smart to not try to dive into something like rapid chelation with some major chelator, if you dont have some major issue going on which you think is likely caused by it.

Every once in a while I get major GI issues which I think are caused by candida. A little bit of EDTA in with some of the other stuff I take just cuts through it very fast - it cleans me out, but it also seems to be very hard to do it enough to clean the other stuff out and not overdo it and trigger major problems for me.

Fairly recently I discovered phytonutrients did a lot of the things I need without those side effects. But I still have some kind of underlying issue I cant get rid of. And I have insurance, but its not reallly as useful as one would help because the doctors dont want to do anything until you actually have a crisis. And then its doubtful that they will do the right thing because they dont listen to you. They are increasingly slaves of a really rapidly dysfunctional system.


Originally Posted by rapnjoe View Post
Was wondering if you or anyone out there has any luck with chelation ?
It was recommended to me, and I have definitely been exposed to toxins as a mechanic.In the old days I use to wash part in gasoline.
But not being covered by insurance I'm a little hesitant.Some claim cilantro is a natural way to remove heavy metals which I ate for mos.and still juice it,but I never have noticed any difference.
christ0ph is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 06:26 PM
  #124  
surgeonstone
Senior Member
 
surgeonstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Bend IN
Posts: 11,218

Bikes: 1976 FRESCHI, 2004 Crumpton.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by tadawdy View Post
I assume a form of rebound pain? All chronic pain sufferers run this risk with use of painkillers, if it's the same mechanism.
There is in FMS an increase sensitization within the CNS that leads to the chronic pain and narcotics compound this effect. It is amazing how many people I have had that were addicted to narcotics for what they thought, were reasonable issues and found that once off the narcotics, their pain was gone.
surgeonstone is offline  
Old 11-16-11, 06:28 PM
  #125  
christ0ph
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: currently NYC area, previously, Bay Area
Posts: 501

Bikes: 1974 Raleigh Grand Prix

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I think its simple, mold makes people sick. Its not baroreceptors, often its mold. Mold and formaldehyde..They need to deal with that. If you just paint it over and dont remove the effected sheetrock and clean out the wall cavities and replace it, if they just leave delaminating OSB in there everybody who lives in that building for decades is going to get effected by it, even amounts smaller than you can even see or measure affordably are going to make the immune system go crazy, never get a rest, and around a quarter of them will get really, really sick.

Zillions of houses have been forclosed, some of them sit for months with broken pipes, etc, leaks, etc, and they just paint them over and resell them, That is going to cause MAJOR health problems. Soon.

It already is.
christ0ph is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.