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Public service announcement to new Specialized Roubaix owners...

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Public service announcement to new Specialized Roubaix owners...

Old 11-29-11, 03:11 PM
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Campag4life
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Public service announcement to new Specialized Roubaix owners...

I wanted to share what I learned as I have a '12 Roubaix Pro SL3 framset on order...actually backorder from Specialized currently...supposed to be here by March at the latest...hope so as I would like to build it up for next spring.

In a thread talking about Cervelo R series bikes, a member here mentioned that his shop had an issue with a new Roubaix with Ultegra...balky shifting in the rear. He stated the shop thought it was the tightness of the rear loop which was a design failure and I said...I don't think so..and still feel that way btw. The reality is...hidden cable routing can incite as much contempt as BB30...many seek a frame without both in fact. I don't feel that way about hidden cables...I like cable routed thru the frame. Now..it definitely can cause sticky shifting if done incorrectly as many have found out. Shimano with their low spring tension which is by design intent for low shift efforts on later Ultegra and Dura Ace have been prone to balky shifting with their new under the bar tape routing...borrowed from Campy who has also suffered on ocassion ...but all can generally be resolved if care is exercised during set up. Kind of like BB30.
So...what's the figurative rub with new Roubaix shifting...with hidden cable routing? If one routes the cables on the same side of the head tube...which is typically contrary to how most route their cables on exposed cable bikes...on the same side of the head tube as emitted from under the bar tape...then radii are tightened and poor shifting can ensue.

Enter Specialized tech bulletin:
https://cdn.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/...ifting_fix.pdf

It is recommended that cables be 'crossed' on the inside of the down tube such that cables can be routed on the opposite sides of the head tube where they route to under the handlebar tape. This promotes a more fluid routing of the cables for less restriction...which makes sense and again how many of us route our current exposed cable bikes. I wanted to share this because I was lucky to stumble on it for myself as I build up the Roubaix when it comes in and no doubt the new SL3 Roubaix is going to be a popular bike.

Below I show both correct and incorrect routing of the new Roubaix. I suspect the shop that believes balky Ultegra shifting on the new SL3 Roubaix is due to the rear cable loop didn't get the memo.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Roubaix Pro Cable Routing 2.jpg (99.3 KB, 282 views)
File Type: jpg
2011 Roubaix Pro Black.jpg (108.5 KB, 254 views)
File Type: jpg
Roubaix Cable Routing 3.jpg (58.7 KB, 253 views)

Last edited by Campag4life; 11-29-11 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:16 PM
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I don't get internal cable routing that requires a super unaero front end setup. I get internal routing, just not unaero internal routing.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
It is recommended that cables be 'crossed' on the inside of the down tube such that cables can be routed on the opposite sides of the head tube where they route to under the handlebar tape. This promotes a more fluid routing of the cables for less restriction...which makes sense and again how many of us route our current exposed cable bikes.
This is how I do it on my Madone because when you do it like this you get almost no frame rub. It might be slightly less aero. I don't know what the quantifiable effects are but they can't be very significant.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rpeterson View Post
I don't get internal cable routing that requires a super unaero front end setup. I get internal routing, just not unaero internal routing.
Well then...a growth opportunity for you.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:29 PM
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I cross the cables under the downtube on my exposed cable Roubaix (and Secteur). Ultegra 6700 shifts like a charm on both. BB30 works like a charm on one of them, external bearing BB like a charm on the other.

Internal cable routing looks like a fair amount of pain for little gain.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wkg View Post
This is how I do it on my Madone because when you do it like this you get almost no frame rub. It might be slightly less aero. I don't know what the quantifiable effects are but they can't be very significant.
Aerodynamics on a Roubaix maybe a slightly lower priority. Internal cable routing isn't all about aerodynamics as maybe some think. It is in part aesthetics and also minimizing bare cable exposure for water ingress etc.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by svtmike View Post
I cross the cables under the downtube on my exposed cable Roubaix (and Secteur). Ultegra 6700 shifts like a charm on both. BB30 works like a charm on one of them, external bearing BB like a charm on the other.

Internal cable routing looks like a fair amount of pain for little gain.
As far as pain to gain ratio...I told you there were parallels between hidden cables and BB-30. I like hidden cables and am OK with the extra trouble to route them but they are typically a bit more hassle to install to be sure. I like the clean result.
Thanks for adding your tip about crossing the cables under the downtube on your exposed cable bikes. Will likely help others if they are having an issue.

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Old 11-29-11, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Aerodynamics on a Roubaix maybe a slightly lower priority. Internal cable routing isn't all about aerodynamics as maybe some think. It is in part aesthetics and also minimizing bare cable exposure for water ingress etc.
I do have to replace the rear brake cable/housing on my Roubaix because it's sticking at cable stop at the back of the top tube, most likely from my sweat dripping on it for two seasons.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by svtmike View Post
I do have to replace the rear brake cable/housing on my Roubaix because it's sticking at cable stop at the back of the top tube, most likely from my sweat dripping on it for two seasons.
I get your sarcasm. Agreed. To me...and only my opinion...internal cable routing sells more bikes...and only if it does as some definitely don't like it...due to the wow factor of a cleaner look. Is it worth a couple of watts into a head wind? Maybe...if that.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I get your sarcasm. Agreed. To me...and only my opinion...internal cable routing sells more bikes...and only if it does as some definitely don't like it...due to the wow factor of a cleaner look. Is it worth a couple of watts into a head wind? Maybe...if that.
I'll admit that I went with it on a road bike for the looks, but I'm sticking with it because I was able to set it up so the cables can't be seen from the front, it's just neat having invisible cables.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Aerodynamics on a Roubaix maybe a slightly lower priority. Internal cable routing isn't all about aerodynamics as maybe some think. It is in part aesthetics and also minimizing bare cable exposure for water ingress etc.
Yeah well the Madone isn't a very aero frame either. But I agree that internal cable routing looks much neater than external.

It took me awhile to do all the cables and housing when I built the bike due to the internal routing but once you get it all figured out it's really not very difficult and barely more time consuming than external routing. Just make sure you save the clear plastic sleeves that come in the frame for the derailleur cables.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rpeterson View Post
I'll admit that I went with it on a road bike for the looks, but I'm sticking with it because I was able to set it up so the cables can't be seen from the front, it's just neat having invisible cables.
Yeah. Truth I believe is...bikes are a lot about looks when it comes to sales. Its the same thing with under handlebar tape routing. Shimano invented integrated shifter and brake levers. Campy invented under bar tape routing. Shimano copied it. More about looks than saving a watt or two...but directionally correct.
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Old 11-29-11, 04:07 PM
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I've got internal cable routing on my hybrid/MTB which uses Shimano MTB derailleurs. (I have no idea why, I assume aesthetics.) It works fine, but I am not too keen on re-wiring it myself for the first time.
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Old 11-29-11, 04:51 PM
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That was me and my LBS. I would say this: it is a stock bike from the factory...the factory built the bike and did the cable routing both in front, inside and in the back.

It didn't shift properly from the factory.

They have worked on it themselves and contacted Specialized technical support and elevated the issue a couple of times and it still doesn't shift right. Now I haven't worked on the bike...I know the owner of the bike as well as the owner of the LBS and the GM of the LBS and know they are doing everything they can to get it fixed for the owner of the bike as he is a personal friend of the LBS owner's father. I am also looking at the Roubaix SL3 and in speaking with the GM about it he mentioned his dislike of the design. He feels the shortness of the RD housing in combination with the Ultegra RD spring tension is a serious potential culprit and says they have no issues with SRAM setups.

Honestly I would love to have a whack at this bike to see if I could get it straightened but that probably isn't going to happen...the LBS is doing all this work under warranty anyway...but it is a nuisance to the owner who complains about it on our group rides (which can't be good for business for the LBS)
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Old 11-30-11, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I get your sarcasm. Agreed. To me...and only my opinion...internal cable routing sells more bikes...and only if it does as some definitely don't like it...due to the wow factor of a cleaner look. Is it worth a couple of watts into a head wind? Maybe...if that.
I had a customer that only wanted to look at internal cable routing bikes because they were "more aero" and he fancied himself the studly rider. I casually asked him what his general average riding speed was...I won't tell you what he said, but it required me to muster up many years of selling experience to not burst out laughing.

Point: The cycling mags do an outstanding job of selling kool aid.
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Old 11-30-11, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by wkg View Post
Yeah well the Madone isn't a very aero frame either. But I agree that internal cable routing looks much neater than external.

It took me awhile to do all the cables and housing when I built the bike due to the internal routing but once you get it all figured out it's really not very difficult and barely more time consuming than external routing. Just make sure you save the clear plastic sleeves that come in the frame for the derailleur cables.
Probably why the Schleck's could only muster up a second and third at Le Tour.

Seriously, you guys worry way too much about things like aero. It's pretty funny.

I am not a fan of internals. But I don't seem to suffer the same maladies that riders out here suffer (like shifting). Trust me, the cables under my top tube and down tube are not creating insufferable levels of wind drag.
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Old 11-30-11, 06:50 AM
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OP, thanks for postings this.

I have had a number of problems with the RD of my SL3. I'm pretty sure that the guys at the LBS, are not aware of this.
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Old 11-30-11, 06:51 AM
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I don't worry too much about areo...and why I ordered the Roubaix frame and won't cancel my order either because a shop can't set up a single Utegra bike. For some reason when Specialized was developing the Specialized SL3 Roubaix...and probably had 20 of them running arouund the factory with Ultegra they didn't discover this issue...lol. I wonder why. Ultegra is probably the no. 1 selling groupset for this bike.
I hear you Gchopper...I withheld your name out of respect only. Your story sounds all too familiar. In fact you could have told the same story only subsititued in BB30 and it would resonant with 500 people throughout the country...many framesets getting replaced under warranty in fact needlessly as an excuse for a bike shop not being capable to resolve the issue. This is a case where the blind is leading the blind. I have no doubt the owner of that bike is upset about it and btw all those involved are working in earnest...just not able to root cause it...probably hampered by time mostly. It takes time....and many shops don't have the time to invest. A single wrongfully cut cable housing end...incomplete insertion at the shifter or derailleur...insufficiently seated ferrules etc...can cause binding. The bike can also be set up to run an external cable from the RH shifter to the rear derailleur. That is the way to prove if the shifter and rear derailleur are ok. As discussed and not another problem...hidden cable routing has caused issues for many. If you hang out on the Cervelo forum you will discover that many don't believe a S3 which has different cable routing can be built with Campy and shift properly. Others believe no problem. Many replace their DuraAce 7900 with older 7800 with external to bar tape cable routing because they can't get their 7900 to shift right. Same with new Ultegra. There has been a litany of complains about Campy in this regard as well. I believe there is nothing wrong with the new Shimano groupsets but they do require vigilance in set up...good routing with decent radii bends and clean housing cuts.

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Old 11-30-11, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Gluteus View Post
OP, thanks for postings this.

I have had a number of problems with the RD of my SL3. I'm pretty sure that the guys at the LBS, are not aware of this.
Was my hope...to get the word out. Not sure if LBS's are going to be very forthcoming on this for the simple fact that re-cabling a bike is a lot of work so if customers don't complain, don't believe a lot of 'courtesy phone calls' will be made.

This maybe considered Specialized fault as well which may result in a fair amount more work for bike shops to resolve it...as I believe cable routing comes from the factory on same side of the headtube to each shifter.
Perhaps bike shops can charge new cables and labor back to Specialized.

I also believe that both cable routings can be made to shift OK...just opposite side of the headtube is directionally correct for less restriction as is the case for most external cable bikes. The reason why pretty much all bikes suffer more issues in back is because of the length of the cable and lower spring rate in particular...front derailleurs tend to have stout springs by design.

Gluteus...what year and groupset do you have on your bike? Can you describe as accurately as possible what your shifting issue in back is? Is it slow or lazy shifting when you are stepping down the cassette...aka upshifting?

Thanks

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Old 11-30-11, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Was my hope...to get the word out. Not sure if LBS's are going to be very forthcoming on this for the simple fact that re-cabling a bike is a lot of work so if customers don't complain, don't believe their will be many courtesy phone calls made.
I also believe that both cable routings can be made to shift OK...just opposite side of the headtube is directionally correct for less restriction. The reason why pretty much all bikes suffer more issues in back is because of the length of the cable and lower spring rate in particular...front derailleurs tend to have stout springs by design...less shifting in front as well and less precise indexing required.

Gluteus...what year and groupset do you have on your bike?
DA (the components were moved from another frame to the SL3). No problems with the FR, but RD has been a PITA.
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Old 11-30-11, 09:28 AM
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Thank you for posting this. My SL3 has been having 'issues' with rear shifting from day one despite any number of adjustments in the 9 months since. The cables on my Roubaix were installed by the LBS, but I imagine they were just copying the way it was originally set up by the factory when they routed them without crossing. Funny thing is though, I notice the date on that memo is several months before I ordered the bike... and at that time the complete bike and frameset were both on backorder, so it came directly from Specialized as they replenished their stock.... so I am left to wonder how the bulletin was not shared with the factory and bike shops in those months between the November '10 publication and Spring 2011 when the lot that my bike was part of was received by distributors/shops?
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Old 11-30-11, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gluteus View Post
DA (the components were moved from another frame to the SL3). No problems with the FR, but RD has been a PITA.
Gluteus...7900 DA aka under the bar tape routing? Campy has been criticized for screwing the pouch with their low spring efforts...but DA has been criticized as much in favor of low effort shifting.
Will ask again...you may not be a tech guy...but is your problem with lazy upshifting, i.e. climbing down the cassette in back? Reason I ask is...high cable drag i.e. binding almost invariably affects up shifting more than downshifting. Takes a pretty crappy cable job not to overcome drag when shifting up (downshifting) the cassette in back. Shifting down the cassette to smaller cogs(up shifting) requires spring tension overcoming amount of cable drag which is additive all the way from the shifter to the where the derailleur mounts.

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Old 11-30-11, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MegaTom View Post
Thank you for posting this. My SL3 has been having 'issues' with rear shifting from day one despite any number of adjustments in the 9 months since. The cables on my Roubaix were installed by the LBS, but I imagine they were just copying the way it was originally set up by the factory when they routed them without crossing. Funny thing is though, I notice the date on that memo is several months before I ordered the bike... and at that time the complete bike and frameset were both on backorder, so it came directly from Specialized as they replenished their stock.... so I am left to wonder how the bulletin was not shared with the factory and bike shops in those months between the November '10 publication and Spring 2011 when the lot that my bike was part of was received by distributors/shops?
A lot of shops are simply overwhelmed with work. Even if they know about it, if a customer doesn't complain, many shops due to work load aren't going to invite more work. Specialized isn't clean about this. Their bulletin release is akin to a TSB for an automobile. Some vehicles have many TSB's after being out for more than a couple of years.

Quantities sold to the public can unearth aspects of any design that aren't apparent in development. Customer testing unfortunately reveals design weaknesses and hence repair bulletins in the field after product has shipped. A nuance about product development for those tech heads out there is...it is very difficult to replicate production variation in design verification testing. Many times 50 bikes can be built in a row that will work perfect but when you have 5000 out there with all the different combination of molds and different groupsets, cranks etc each with their increment of variation....that level of varation is hard to simulate in testing due to development time and cost. Hence the customer ends up doing the beta testing.

If you have a chance, please explain precisely what is going on with your rear shifting.

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Old 11-30-11, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
Seriously, you guys worry way too much about things like aero. It's pretty funny.
No I don't worry about aero at all. That's why I bought a Madone and not an aero road bike. I like the internal routing because it looks better.

Never had any shifting issues aside from the initial cable stretch that was easily fixed with the barrel adjusters, although I have SRAM on my bike.

That being said I did ride the Madone 5.2 for close to a month. It has Ultegra, internal routing and is one of my shops rentals/demos so it's been consistently used and abused since they got it. It always shifted perfectly. It didn't have the shift cable crossed to the opposite side of the head tube either.
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Old 11-30-11, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I hear you Gchopper...I withheld your name out of respect only. Your story sounds all too familiar. In fact you could have told the same story only subsititued in BB30 and it would resonant with 500 people throughout the country...many framesets getting replaced under warranty in fact needlessly as an excuse for a bike shop not being capable to resolve the issue.
Thanks I guess...you could have posted my name, it isn't my bike and I'm not the one working on it...just relaying what I have heard from the GM of my LBS and a rider in my weekly group ride. I'm looking at the SL3 as well as the Defy Advanced so I'm interested in these issues and their resolution as I do my own wrenching (and thus typically get issues fixed the first time if they even arrise). Interestingly this same LBS has had no real issues with BB30. That said I wouldn't trust them to build a wheel...I did 5 times (2 sets and a single) and they just don't do it right...so I bought all the tools to do it my self and have built several great, long lasting wheels for myself.

Like I said earlier...I would love to have a chance to fix this bike as I want to learn more about the issue and think I could get it resolved fairly quickly.
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