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"SRAM should have gone 11, they are behind now" "Campy wasn't ready with their EPS"

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"SRAM should have gone 11, they are behind now" "Campy wasn't ready with their EPS"

Old 12-03-11, 07:27 AM
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"SRAM should have gone 11, they are behind now" "Campy wasn't ready with their EPS"

I have been reading this a lot here lately with SRAM's Red revision announcement and the Campagnolo EPS release...those of you thinking this aren't looking at the big picture.

Think about it...SRAM can't go 11 speed until Shimano does. From the numbers posted on Weight Weenies Shimano's market share is 5x that of SRAM. SRAM is using Shimano's spline pattern for their cassettes. If Shimano needs to widen the freehub and move the drive side flange in to fit the 11 speed cassette that means SRAM does too and since whatever Shimano designs and releases will drive the market (and not SRAM) SRAM has to wait for Shimano to do it first. If they design and release a new cassette and freehub Shimano strategically could design theirs differently to force a change by SRAM and cost them tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in wasted inventory and engineering time. The right move is to wait for details of the industry leader's design to come out and then design your system to be compatible. A bold and risky move would have been to release an 11 speed design that utilized Campagnolo's freehub and spacing...but that would be pretty risky given the tiny market share Campy holds (about 1/4 of SRAM which is around 1/5 of Shimano). The fact that their cassettes are interchangeable with Shimano is really the driving factor here. When Shimano's 11 speed is released SRAM won't be far behind.

This is the exact same reason Campagnolo didn't release their electronic system until Shimano's was received by the market. If they did and the wiring was significantly different from Shimano they would have to change on the fly and deal with throwing out inventory and the perception that they messed up. Instead they waited for Shimano to release and for companies to design DI2 specific frames...Campy then could tweak their wiring harness to work perfectly with DI2 specific frames.
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Old 12-03-11, 07:44 AM
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Both valid points.

There are other reasons for Campagnolo's decision as well. It is always a tit for tat thing between them and Shimano. Campagnolo went to 11spd and forced Shimano to make a move with electronic. And, as you point out, Campagnolo could sit back and watch.

Now Campagnolo releases two groups and goes up (SR) while Shimano goes down (Ultegra).

The next move is Shimano's to make (11spd). How will Campagnolo counter is really the next question.
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Old 12-03-11, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
How will Campagnolo counter is really the next question.
Aren't they the same now? Both have two 11s electric systems.

With all this talk about disc brakes, then this will be the next battle.
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Old 12-03-11, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
Aren't they the same now? Both have two 11s electric systems.

With all this talk about disc brakes, then this will be the next battle.
Um no...Shimano has 2 10 speed electronic systems. Your looking at 2013 product leaks there. As Patentcad says "vaporware".
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Old 12-03-11, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
With all this talk about disc brakes, then this will be the next battle.
Sram got forced to release their disc brake system early Spring now. The problem is they won't have produced enough to meet demand
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Old 12-03-11, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
Sram got forced ...
Heh
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Old 12-03-11, 04:07 PM
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Campagnolo should consider branching out into the manufacture of replacement hips & knee joints.
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Old 12-03-11, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by embankmentlb View Post
Campagnolo should consider branching out into the manufacture of replacement hips & knee joints.
I don't get it.
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Old 12-03-11, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ilovecycling View Post
I don't get it.
ignore it. he often come around making poor attempts at bashing campagnolo.


i would have liked to see the new red group use the campagnolo 11spd design. sram already makes campy compatible wheels via zipp and most other reputable manufactures support the standard. it would have been much less risky than making there own, and possibly less risky than waiting on shimano. we are not talking about something as big as electronic shifting, campy has a proven hub/cassette standard. sram is plenty big enough to make shimano react. it is too bad they didnt here.

like it or not i do think discs will be the next thing. first sram, then shimano, and campag coming in a little behind. sram and shimano are tooled to make disc brakes already and campagnolo to the best of my knowledge hasnt done if for decades.
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Old 12-03-11, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
like it or not i do think discs will be the next thing. first sram, then shimano, and campag coming in a little behind. sram and shimano are tooled to make disc brakes already and campagnolo to the best of my knowledge hasnt done if for decades.
I agree that this would seem to make the most sense from this side but the development times are longer than you think for these companies. Shimano already has 11spd for 2013 and so far nothing from Sram other than a redesign of a few parts.

The next thing won't must likely drop until 2014 (unless Sram already has something ready to go and is waiting for the right time to drop it).

The other problem with road discs is rear wheel spacing. It really has to be 135mm. Wheel makers would not be happy with 130mm disc brake wheels. Frame makers would also need to get on board with 135mm for road (some have already gone that route in Cross) so unless Sram can get a few big brands to partner with them it would be tough to introduce a road group that is only good for custom frames.

I've asked a few frame makers and so far no rumblings on 135mm spacing requests.
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Old 12-03-11, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by embankmentlb View Post
Campagnolo should consider branching out into the manufacture of replacement hips & knee joints.
For their aging customer base. Smilie.
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Old 12-03-11, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
I agree that this would seem to make the most sense from this side but the development times are longer than you think for these companies. Shimano already has 11spd for 2013 and so far nothing from Sram other than a redesign of a few parts.

The next thing won't must likely drop until 2014 (unless Sram already has something ready to go and is waiting for the right time to drop it).

The other problem with road discs is rear wheel spacing. It really has to be 135mm. Wheel makers would not be happy with 130mm disc brake wheels. Frame makers would also need to get on board with 135mm for road (some have already gone that route in Cross) so unless Sram can get a few big brands to partner with them it would be tough to introduce a road group that is only good for custom frames.

I've asked a few frame makers and so far no rumblings on 135mm spacing requests.
i fully understand development time (i work in manufacturing) i didnt mean to say discs will be here soon, but i expect it to be the next wave after electronic shifting and 11spd settle out.

i am purely speculating but i wound not be surpriszed to see sram discs prior to 2014. it may be nothing more than massaged over bb7 calipers, a light weight disc, and possibly 130 and 135mm. it seems like they just need something to say look at me.

for a while i was wondering if shimano would go 135mm for their 11spd in anticipation of disc brakes but by the sounds of it, they probably are not.
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Old 12-03-11, 06:26 PM
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sram already makes the bb7 road disk brake system. the only thing lacking is road bikes with caliper mounts on the fork/ forks strong enough to use disk brakes. you really don't need a disk on the rear of a road bike. it's easy enough to lock the rear wheel (even in the rain) with caliper brakes.
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Old 12-03-11, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth_Firebolt View Post
sram already makes the bb7 road disk brake system. the only thing lacking is road bikes with caliper mounts on the fork/ forks strong enough to use disk brakes. you really don't need a disk on the rear of a road bike. it's easy enough to lock the rear wheel (even in the rain) with caliper brakes.
i dont disagree with you but i still wouldnt be surprised to see massaged bb7s wearing the sram red name. branding is everything.
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Old 12-03-11, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
i dont disagree with you but i still wouldnt be surprised to see massaged bb7s wearing the sram red name. branding is everything.
on the MTB side of the fence (what usually has disk brakes) they are still using the avid name, even on the SRAM XX group (top tier).

not arguing, but i'm not sure if most guys pay attention to the MTB stuff.
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Old 12-03-11, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth_Firebolt View Post
on the MTB side of the fence (what usually has disk brakes) they are still using the avid name, even on the SRAM XX group (top tier).

not arguing, but i'm not sure if most guys pay attention to the MTB stuff.
i am aware of this. avid had a reputable name in mtb when sram bought them. that reputation probably helped drive this decision. besides, roadies are a different breed of cyclists. i think the same part would sell better branded the same as the rest of the group.
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