Given the current crop of High Quality Bikes...all made in china. Does Brand Matter
12-06-11, 07:30 AM
#26
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12-06-11, 08:03 AM
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Doesn't matter.
For all those people in the last few years bemoaning 'It's SO DANGEROUS' to ride a no-name China carbon frame, etc, there have been amazingly few bike failures from these companies. If there were, you'd surely hear folks complaining of it LOUDLY on any bike forum, and it simply doesn't happen often.
I'm sure that there are slightly better materials, and definitely research etc in non Chinese generic frame makers that originated many of these designs, but the reality is that when it comes down to it, you're not going to get a substantive speed difference from all that research.
What you will get is a company that's putting their good name on the line to back up any product they have. As for me, I don't find that enough of a item to warrant spending 3-4x the price of a frame, but some do.
For all those people in the last few years bemoaning 'It's SO DANGEROUS' to ride a no-name China carbon frame, etc, there have been amazingly few bike failures from these companies. If there were, you'd surely hear folks complaining of it LOUDLY on any bike forum, and it simply doesn't happen often.
I'm sure that there are slightly better materials, and definitely research etc in non Chinese generic frame makers that originated many of these designs, but the reality is that when it comes down to it, you're not going to get a substantive speed difference from all that research.
What you will get is a company that's putting their good name on the line to back up any product they have. As for me, I don't find that enough of a item to warrant spending 3-4x the price of a frame, but some do.
12-06-11, 08:28 AM
#28
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Exactly. The OP was wrong when he said "all made in China". It doesn't change the point of his question.
You may also disagree in his conjecture that brand doesn't matter but I think it's a more interesting and fresher discussion than whether most mainstream bikes are made in china or taiwan.
12-06-11, 11:05 AM
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Doesn't matter.
For all those people in the last few years bemoaning 'It's SO DANGEROUS' to ride a no-name China carbon frame, etc, there have been amazingly few bike failures from these companies. If there were, you'd surely hear folks complaining of it LOUDLY on any bike forum, and it simply doesn't happen often.
I'm sure that there are slightly better materials, and definitely research etc in non Chinese generic frame makers that originated many of these designs, but the reality is that when it comes down to it, you're not going to get a substantive speed difference from all that research.
What you will get is a company that's putting their good name on the line to back up any product they have. As for me, I don't find that enough of a item to warrant spending 3-4x the price of a frame, but some do.
For all those people in the last few years bemoaning 'It's SO DANGEROUS' to ride a no-name China carbon frame, etc, there have been amazingly few bike failures from these companies. If there were, you'd surely hear folks complaining of it LOUDLY on any bike forum, and it simply doesn't happen often.
I'm sure that there are slightly better materials, and definitely research etc in non Chinese generic frame makers that originated many of these designs, but the reality is that when it comes down to it, you're not going to get a substantive speed difference from all that research.
What you will get is a company that's putting their good name on the line to back up any product they have. As for me, I don't find that enough of a item to warrant spending 3-4x the price of a frame, but some do.
I have never spent time on a generic Chinese frame, but I have extensively tried different carbon frames with varying technologies going into their production. These frames were made in Taiwan and the US. The research and development that contributes to the quality of carbon fiber makes a huge difference. It makes more of a difference with carbon fiber than it does with any other material given the infinite variation in design to affect performance properties that carbon fiber affords.
An objective comparison between generic Chinese and a high end US made frame (Trek Madone 6, Parlee) or high end Taiwanese produced frames (developed by a reputable brand) would show that the branded frames weigh less and are stiffer. The branded ones are also much more technologically advanced. There is a significant performance increase with all of this.
In my opinion the only real reason to buy carbon is because of all the amazing performance increasing things that can be done with it as a material. It really is undeniably the most flexible and variable frame material in this respect. If you're going to buy a carbon frame you're missing out on most of these qualities when you buy a generic no name frame from China and you're buying carbon just for the sake of carbon.
You're also buying something that has no warranty, no crash replacement policy and no shop support.
12-06-11, 11:24 AM
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The chinese communist leaderhip would be very stupid to try and invade Taiwan........as that is the "trigger point" for the coming sino-american war.
And if that invasion comes, then the chinese communist party is toast!
Taiwan is the trigger point for that looming and coming confrontation.
And if that invasion comes, then the chinese communist party is toast!
Taiwan is the trigger point for that looming and coming confrontation.
12-06-11, 11:29 AM
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meh - I think the economies are so intertwined it would be hard to trigger a war between China and the US. Would you want to start a war with someone who owes you the majority of their total public debt?
12-06-11, 11:29 AM
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I prefer strong companies with big engineering staffs that are involved in racing and bicycle advocacy. If a person wants to buy copycat engineering or a made-up brand (example: Scattante) or a legacy brand that has nothing to do with the current owner (example: Motobecane) from a low-end and price-first company (examples: Bikes Direct or Chain Reaction UK), go for it. Enjoy the ride. I respect your choice but we have different values. I prefer to ride a brand from a company that invests in quality and makes investments in the sport I love. The brand does mean something if the company behind it behaves in a way that I value while others do not. The federal government can build cycling out of existence if they want. We all need places to ride. I support companies that agree with me and prove it through their actions.
12-06-11, 11:32 AM
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I wouldn't mind riding a carbon frame off ebay for a race bike. Have it professionally built up and use it only to race on.
12-06-11, 11:42 AM
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Kinda like access to Iraq oilfields after Saddam was offed.
Think about it.
Oh, and the chinese don't have to start a war, they can just blunder into it. Again kinda like Saddam, Kuwait and the rest of the story.
Last edited by Jed19; 12-06-11 at 11:47 AM.
12-06-11, 11:45 AM
#36
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Really? Because there was a poster in this thread talking about his China frame failing very shortly after purchase. He wasn't doing it "LOUDLY". Some people might not complain at all in a public forum just because they were warned, they knew it there was a possibility the thing would break and then it did.
I have never spent time on a generic Chinese frame, but I have extensively tried different carbon frames with varying technologies going into their production. These frames were made in Taiwan and the US. The research and development that contributes to the quality of carbon fiber makes a huge difference. It makes more of a difference with carbon fiber than it does with any other material given the infinite variation in design to affect performance properties that carbon fiber affords.
An objective comparison between generic Chinese and a high end US made frame (Trek Madone 6, Parlee) or high end Taiwanese produced frames (developed by a reputable brand) would show that the branded frames weigh less and are stiffer. The branded ones are also much more technologically advanced. There is a significant performance increase with all of this.
In my opinion the only real reason to buy carbon is because of all the amazing performance increasing things that can be done with it as a material. It really is undeniably the most flexible and variable frame material in this respect. If you're going to buy a carbon frame you're missing out on most of these qualities when you buy a generic no name frame from China and you're buying carbon just for the sake of carbon.
You're also buying something that has no warranty, no crash replacement policy and no shop support.
I have never spent time on a generic Chinese frame, but I have extensively tried different carbon frames with varying technologies going into their production. These frames were made in Taiwan and the US. The research and development that contributes to the quality of carbon fiber makes a huge difference. It makes more of a difference with carbon fiber than it does with any other material given the infinite variation in design to affect performance properties that carbon fiber affords.
An objective comparison between generic Chinese and a high end US made frame (Trek Madone 6, Parlee) or high end Taiwanese produced frames (developed by a reputable brand) would show that the branded frames weigh less and are stiffer. The branded ones are also much more technologically advanced. There is a significant performance increase with all of this.
In my opinion the only real reason to buy carbon is because of all the amazing performance increasing things that can be done with it as a material. It really is undeniably the most flexible and variable frame material in this respect. If you're going to buy a carbon frame you're missing out on most of these qualities when you buy a generic no name frame from China and you're buying carbon just for the sake of carbon.
You're also buying something that has no warranty, no crash replacement policy and no shop support.
I don't deny that the headliner companies have better carbon, more engineering, etc. But truth is that when even a old-school 80s-era aluminum bike goes 99% as fast as a carbon road bike, all those fancy technological advancements are only improving that 1% of speed differential, which for all but the really die-hard racers, is a rounding error compared to the variance in training and other equipment used.
On aero impact lists, frames rank near the bottom in terms of speed per dollar gained, if not the bottom. As long as the frame doesn't catastrophically fail, you're riding a bike good enough to win Cat1 and above events.
And despite what you might think, the vast majority of BFers and elsewhere buy generic CF frames with no problems whatsoever.
12-06-11, 11:51 AM
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The bolded part is the biggest bunch of bull. If you tell ANY rider on road bike with drop bars that they'll go significantly faster, like 2-3% faster, just by switching from their generic carbon ebay frame to a Cervelo frame, you'd be wrong.
I don't deny that the headliner companies have better carbon, more engineering, etc. But truth is that when even a old-school 80s-era aluminum bike goes 99% as fast as a carbon road bike, all those fancy technological advancements are only improving that 1% of speed differential, which for all but the really die-hard racers, is a rounding error compared to the variance in training and other equipment used.
On aero impact lists, frames rank near the bottom in terms of speed per dollar gained, if not the bottom. As long as the frame doesn't catastrophically fail, you're riding a bike good enough to win Cat1 and above events.
And despite what you might think, the vast majority of BFers and elsewhere buy generic CF frames with no problems whatsoever.
I don't deny that the headliner companies have better carbon, more engineering, etc. But truth is that when even a old-school 80s-era aluminum bike goes 99% as fast as a carbon road bike, all those fancy technological advancements are only improving that 1% of speed differential, which for all but the really die-hard racers, is a rounding error compared to the variance in training and other equipment used.
On aero impact lists, frames rank near the bottom in terms of speed per dollar gained, if not the bottom. As long as the frame doesn't catastrophically fail, you're riding a bike good enough to win Cat1 and above events.
And despite what you might think, the vast majority of BFers and elsewhere buy generic CF frames with no problems whatsoever.
What I can tell you though is if you spend two hours riding generic Chinese carbon and then you hop on a Cervelo or a Madone 6 or any other high end carbon frame you will see a very noticeable difference in the performance of the frame.
What I'm saying is that if you want to reap the benefits of the technological advancement of carbon fiber, you need to buy from a reputable manufacturer. Otherwise you are buying carbon for the sake of buying carbon. Instead of doing that you should just buy a Spooky or something that will be lighter and perform better than the Chinese carbon.
12-06-11, 12:17 PM
#38
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Ok, let's not argue semantics.
I challenge you to find an aero comparison list or study (pseudoscientific is fine) where the frame doesn't come in near the bottom of the list in terms of speed benefit. Even your friggin' BOOTIES allegedly give more of an aero advantage than your frame, and on Slowtwitch, high level athletes routinely argue that a single bottle on the frame negates all the aero benefits of a Cervelo compared to a round tube 80s-era bike.
Again, I don't deny that there are carbon advancements, some of which are quite pricey. But I'm definitely disagreeing on that part I bolded on your prior post - the speed differential you're playing with for all those fancy-pancy engineering characteristics is 1% of speed, if not 0.1% of speed. Hence disagreeing with your quote "There is a significant performance increase with all of this."
I also own a Cervelo and $650 Giant Defy3, and for sure the Cervelo is a harsher ride, so it's not like the expensive bike always has a nicer ride. Cervelos are well known to be super-stiff for racing - my LBS warned me about this when I bought it, saying they've had customers who have rattled the components off their Cervelos. That sounds far-fetched to me, but the point was well-taken - my Cervelo is a far harsher ride than even my aluminum Giant. And it doesn't go any faster. =(
I challenge you to find an aero comparison list or study (pseudoscientific is fine) where the frame doesn't come in near the bottom of the list in terms of speed benefit. Even your friggin' BOOTIES allegedly give more of an aero advantage than your frame, and on Slowtwitch, high level athletes routinely argue that a single bottle on the frame negates all the aero benefits of a Cervelo compared to a round tube 80s-era bike.
Again, I don't deny that there are carbon advancements, some of which are quite pricey. But I'm definitely disagreeing on that part I bolded on your prior post - the speed differential you're playing with for all those fancy-pancy engineering characteristics is 1% of speed, if not 0.1% of speed. Hence disagreeing with your quote "There is a significant performance increase with all of this."
I also own a Cervelo and $650 Giant Defy3, and for sure the Cervelo is a harsher ride, so it's not like the expensive bike always has a nicer ride. Cervelos are well known to be super-stiff for racing - my LBS warned me about this when I bought it, saying they've had customers who have rattled the components off their Cervelos. That sounds far-fetched to me, but the point was well-taken - my Cervelo is a far harsher ride than even my aluminum Giant. And it doesn't go any faster. =(
Last edited by hhnngg1; 12-06-11 at 12:20 PM.
12-06-11, 12:42 PM
#39
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Ok, let's not argue semantics.
I challenge you to find an aero comparison list or study (pseudoscientific is fine) where the frame doesn't come in near the bottom of the list in terms of speed benefit. Even your friggin' BOOTIES allegedly give more of an aero advantage than your frame, and on Slowtwitch, high level athletes routinely argue that a single bottle on the frame negates all the aero benefits of a Cervelo compared to a round tube 80s-era bike.
I challenge you to find an aero comparison list or study (pseudoscientific is fine) where the frame doesn't come in near the bottom of the list in terms of speed benefit. Even your friggin' BOOTIES allegedly give more of an aero advantage than your frame, and on Slowtwitch, high level athletes routinely argue that a single bottle on the frame negates all the aero benefits of a Cervelo compared to a round tube 80s-era bike.
I'm saying that there are a lot of advantages to a carbon frame that are all based around the technology and R&D that goes into that frame. The advantage to carbon as a material is that you can do so many creative things in design to affect the performance of the frame in terms of making it lighter and stiffer but at the same time still very comfortable. There are a huge number of other small features that reputable manufacturers incorporate that all add up to create a really amazing final product.
The generic Chinese frames don't have any of this technology or R&D and are heavier and less stiff than a high end aluminum frame.
I'm not saying that buying a major brand's frame will make you faster than having a generic Chinese frame. I'm not saying that at all. It does provide a measurable increase in performance though because of improved efficiency due to stiffness and lighter weight.
I'm saying that if you buy a generic Chinese carbon frame you are not buying carbon for the amazing design potential it has, because none of this is incorporated into the Chinese carbon like it is into a frame designed by a reputable manufacturer. You are buying it because it says "carbon". As I said before, you can buy aluminum frames that are lighter and stiffer than these Chinese frames. That and they are more durable and have warranties.
If you want to reap benefits of the most recent technological advancements that have come with carbon frames you need to buy from a reputable manufacturer. Otherwise you might as well be buying an aluminum frame that is lighter and performs better than the Chinese carbon alternative. That is my point.
12-06-11, 01:07 PM
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That's one of the many studies showing aero benefits of an aero frame. Ranks near bottom of the list every time.
I find it hard to believe an argument about SIGNIFICANT frame superiority when there's no speed difference and the durability of the lower-end stuff is not a problem at all.
I find it hard to believe an argument about SIGNIFICANT frame superiority when there's no speed difference and the durability of the lower-end stuff is not a problem at all.
12-06-11, 01:27 PM
#42
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Summary of the thread:
OP: all Chinese made frame are pretty good, so brands don't matter, right?
- China is taiwan, and taiwan is not china, you dumbasses!
- Who cares, they all look chinese to me.
- Oh no, it matters a great deal. China bad, Taiwan good.
- Who cares. New Zealand is not Australia, but them kangaroos and koala bears are cute
- so the chinese frames are ok or not?
- areo frames are the best
- Oh no, frames don't matter at all in aero
Conclusion: chinese/taiwanese aero frames don't matter at all. It's the engine.
OP: all Chinese made frame are pretty good, so brands don't matter, right?
- China is taiwan, and taiwan is not china, you dumbasses!
- Who cares, they all look chinese to me.
- Oh no, it matters a great deal. China bad, Taiwan good.
- Who cares. New Zealand is not Australia, but them kangaroos and koala bears are cute
- so the chinese frames are ok or not?
- areo frames are the best
- Oh no, frames don't matter at all in aero
Conclusion: chinese/taiwanese aero frames don't matter at all. It's the engine.
12-06-11, 01:30 PM
#43
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Test rides will get you your answer.
China could fit inside Africa:
China could fit inside Africa:
12-06-11, 02:08 PM
#46
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Summary of the thread:
OP: all Chinese made frame are pretty good, so brands don't matter, right?
- China is taiwan, and taiwan is not china, you dumbasses!
- Who cares, they all look chinese to me.
- Oh no, it matters a great deal. China bad, Taiwan good.
- Who cares. New Zealand is not Australia, but them kangaroos and koala bears are cute
- so the chinese frames are ok or not?
- areo frames are the best
- Oh no, frames don't matter at all in aero
Conclusion: chinese/taiwanese aero frames don't matter at all. It's the engine.
OP: all Chinese made frame are pretty good, so brands don't matter, right?
- China is taiwan, and taiwan is not china, you dumbasses!
- Who cares, they all look chinese to me.
- Oh no, it matters a great deal. China bad, Taiwan good.
- Who cares. New Zealand is not Australia, but them kangaroos and koala bears are cute
- so the chinese frames are ok or not?
- areo frames are the best
- Oh no, frames don't matter at all in aero
Conclusion: chinese/taiwanese aero frames don't matter at all. It's the engine.
12-06-11, 02:21 PM
#47
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Summary of the thread:
OP: all Chinese made frame are pretty good, so brands don't matter, right?
- China is taiwan, and taiwan is not china, you dumbasses!
- Who cares, they all look chinese to me.
- Oh no, it matters a great deal. China bad, Taiwan good.
- Who cares. New Zealand is not Australia, but them kangaroos and koala bears are cute
- so the chinese frames are ok or not?
- areo frames are the best
- Oh no, frames don't matter at all in aero
Conclusion: chinese/taiwanese aero frames don't matter at all. It's the engine.
OP: all Chinese made frame are pretty good, so brands don't matter, right?
- China is taiwan, and taiwan is not china, you dumbasses!
- Who cares, they all look chinese to me.
- Oh no, it matters a great deal. China bad, Taiwan good.
- Who cares. New Zealand is not Australia, but them kangaroos and koala bears are cute
- so the chinese frames are ok or not?
- areo frames are the best
- Oh no, frames don't matter at all in aero
Conclusion: chinese/taiwanese aero frames don't matter at all. It's the engine.
12-06-11, 02:29 PM
#48
Descends like a rock
12-06-11, 03:15 PM
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I prefer strong companies with big engineering staffs that are involved in racing and bicycle advocacy. If a person wants to buy copycat engineering or a made-up brand (example: Scattante) or a legacy brand that has nothing to do with the current owner (example: Motobecane) from a low-end and price-first company (examples: Bikes Direct or Chain Reaction UK), go for it. Enjoy the ride. I respect your choice but we have different values. I prefer to ride a brand from a company that invests in quality and makes investments in the sport I love. The brand does mean something if the company behind it behaves in a way that I value while others do not. The federal government can build cycling out of existence if they want. We all need places to ride. I support companies that agree with me and prove it through their actions.
2. what brand is not "made up"? also, performance has be making frames since the 80s
3. lol