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BB30 conundrum - Advice needed urgently

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BB30 conundrum - Advice needed urgently

Old 01-29-12, 12:43 AM
  #26  
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Campag4life - you really know your stuff...

I just was able to order some of the Wheels MFG adapters so ill give them a go, and when the bearings crap out/ i dont notice a difference/ my beautiful piece of CK machining calls my name ill just press in the sleeve
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Old 01-29-12, 02:46 AM
  #27  
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I predict that this thread is not done and that it will pop up again when the next person faces this same issue.

OP good luck with the solution you've settled on. It should work just fine.
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Old 01-29-12, 04:32 AM
  #28  
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Just to chime in here;

I think by this point the majority of folks will agree that the new bottom bracket "standards" (used in the loosest sense of the word...if there are so many of them can it truly be a "standard"?) are solving a nonexistent problem set. But, they powerfully increase the performance of the marketing department, so some of the performance gains are, I suppose, not illusory.

That being said, I use a BB30 crank. Why? Because the frame was made for it (CAAD9) and I didn't feel like monkeying around with adapters or any other kind of Rube Goldberg contraption to make a different BB/crank combo function. That's a convoluted way of saying that I agree with the posters who advised a different frame.

Force BB30 cranks are relatively inexpensive, and are light for their cost as compared to competing models. They are also not that much heavier than Red.
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Old 01-29-12, 05:20 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Banzai View Post
Just to chime in here;

I think by this point the majority of folks will agree that the new bottom bracket "standards" (used in the loosest sense of the word...if there are so many of them can it truly be a "standard"?) are solving a nonexistent problem set. But, they powerfully increase the performance of the marketing department, so some of the performance gains are, I suppose, not illusory.

That being said, I use a BB30 crank. Why? Because the frame was made for it (CAAD9) and I didn't feel like monkeying around with adapters or any other kind of Rube Goldberg contraption to make a different BB/crank combo function. That's a convoluted way of saying that I agree with the posters who advised a different frame.

Force BB30 cranks are relatively inexpensive, and are light for their cost as compared to competing models. They are also not that much heavier than Red.
I disagree on a number of levels with you what you write, but more in philosophy then any major difference in opinion.

Yes marketing drives sales and to a degree product differentiation and hence lack of standardization. I have worked in product development my whole life. It isn't as much of a marketing game as it is to try and put out a better product for less money to sell more product at a higher profit. So while lack of standards can be bothersome, it can and is worked around. Pick what you like. For example, I believe Specialized makes the best road bikes in the world. This is my opinion. I believe they have the best engineering and engineering is what I am about. They offer a wide array of product...threaded BB, alloy cup BB30 and plastic cup PF30. Do I still prefer a threaded BB? Yup...Specialized makes their Roubaix Pro in a threaded BB so I purchased their frameset. They also sell the whole Roubaix Pro bike with DuraAce or Sram in BB30. So I made a choice and happy with it because I like Campy and Campy cranks bolt best to a threaded BB. If there is a difficult match it is Campy cranks to BB30 and PF30 in spite of Campy selling adapters which don't work well.

OK...so there is a lack of standardization now, mfr's are doing their own thing and now we have a pleathora of choices. Pick what you like.

Second point is...BB30 whether you like it or not is directionally correct. You may not believe it is but it is to performance. It is both lighter and stiffer. Does it matter to an average cyclist like me? No. But a larger hollow crank with bigger bearings is lighter. A larger shell BB is stiffer. Connect that larger BB shell to larger chain stays like most manufacturers now do and you have a stiffer BB and more efficient energy transfer. Is there diminishing return with all this? Yes...I can't feel the difference. But keep in mind a bike is not just one part but the sum of its parts. Optimize everything...including skinny seat stays, downtube to head tube connection...for example all headsets are integrated now and Specialized has a tapered 'cobra' headtube..with 1 3/8" lower bearing. Why not 1 1/2" lower bearing? Too stiff and more frontal area. So bikes are a work in progress and they are leaps and bounds better than they ever have been. Further bikes today including the class leading Roubaix have never had a better ratio of vertical compliance to torsional stiffness. Designers have been able to separate the two which just 5 years ago wasn't the case. So racers don't have to get beat up like they used to if they wanted a fast bike that would efficiently transfer power to the crank to speed on the road.

Most don't like using loctite for setting up their BB. This flies in the face of old conventions and paridigms. But it is pretty simple really. Press the bearings in with a bead of loctite around them and let set over night. Get the right preload on the crank so the balls don't rattle between the inner and out bearing races and you have a dead silent and super stiff and light crankset. Re-grease the bearings on the frame. When they get crunchy knock them out with what you choose...any kind of stick or even a screwdriver. Takes ten minutes to install BB30 bearings and a crank. Unfortunately, many can't seem to bed the bearings properly or adjust the preload on the crank per manufacturing recommendations...whether mechanical preload like Shimano with adapters or Rotor cranks...or wavewasher which is most of them...from Specialized to Campy..to Sram, Cannondale etc.
We will see what the future brings...whether BB30 gives way to PF30 because it is cheaper to make and less prone to creak because plastic cups are less prone to resonate...or another BB comes around that is more robust and yet as light and stiff.

The last point I believe is most important and perhaps where we disagree the most. A BB maybe the center piece of a frameset in terms of its stiffness and lightness but it isn't by far the most important part as long as the frame has a good BB...and BB30 certainly is that...and can be argued it is better. So choosing a frame because it doesn't have a threaded BB is bad advice. First you choose the frame and then put a crank on the bike that works with that BB. If I were younger and more flexible and still raced I would have bought a Tarmac or Venge instead of a Roubaix. I may still own a Roubaix for long training miles because it is so stiff and capable in spite of its more comfortable ride and geometry...but a Tarmac would likely be my race bike of choice. Specialized has made the decision to sell the Tarmac only with BB30 and PF30. Would this dissuade me from buying what I believe to be the best race bike out there? Absolutely not. I would simply mount a BB30 crankset like a Specialized crank which is a Campy clone with hirth joint...or Cannondale's excellent cranks...or Sram Red or Force BB30 cranks...or even DuraAce or Ultegra cranks with wheel mfg spacers because this combo works so well and some believe DuraAce cranks and bang for buck Ultegra cranks are the best in the world inspite of weighing a bit more because of their incredible chain ring stiffness which gives them their precise shifting.

In summary its a great time to be in cycling. Yes the choices can be confusing but there have never been more great choices to make.
PS: A Force BB30 crank is a great choice for your bike...always comes down to value i.e. cost/benefit.

Last edited by Campag4life; 01-29-12 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 01-29-12, 05:59 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Since you stated this twice in this thread, I will chime in. A threaded BSA sleeve is NOT a permanent change. Technically its not a permanent change for a CAAD frame in particular because of a ****genous aluminum BB and can be pushed out without any injury to the frame. Also, Sram takes the position that it is permanent for BB30 frames with carbon shells...but...the truth is...they are just covering their liability. If you use Loctite 680 and a touch of heat for removal, the threaded sleeve will push back out without incident. The concern for permanency is...when pushing out a pressed in BSA threaded sleeve, the alloy cups insert molded into the carbon shell will dislodge. This 'may' be only an issue if using a more permaent Loctite which I would always avoid in this application. No problem if you use Loctite 680 as the molded alloy races inserted into a carbon shell can't tell the difference between whether you are pressing in a threaded BSA sleeve like shown below...or BB30 bearings.

OP...OK...you want to stick with your old DuraAce cranks and you have a BB30. On the cheap and effective?...slam dunk for wheel mfg inserts. Loctite BB30 bearings to your frame, press in the plastic inserts into the ID of the bearings, mount your DuraAce cranks and good to go. This method is used widely with excellent result. If you must use your BB...then push in the sleeve below with Loctite 680.

A few more points:
Bob is extremely knowledgable. And Bob...I am still running your computer genie mount and it is superb.

Flash doesn't know how to set up a BB30 and why he always comes to BB30 threads and disparages the design. BB30 is excellent with proper execution. Some guys shouldn't wrench on bikes and unfortunately many that are mechanically challenged own computers and come here to share their lack of insight.

So OP...those are your options. I would suggest BB30 cranks without your budget contraint but DuraAce cranks are superb and most of us couldn't tell the difference anyway not only in stiffness but handful of grams saved. A further aside is...Wheel Mfg. adapters help mitigate creaking because the delrin material they are made from is a natural sound damper. Also...the reason why Ultegra and DuraAce cranks work so well with BB30 with adapters is because they have adjustable preload and no wave washer.
Much of creaking has to do with not only improper bedding of BB30 bearings at set up...but insufficient axial preload due to crank spacing. Also, if bearings aren't properly seated in set up...they will seat over time due to cyclical axial loads, introduce more axial clearance and hence be prone to creaking. BB30 can't creak if bearings are good and properly set up.
I run BB30 on two bikes without issue. But then we know what we are doing. And when we get BB30 in on a new bike, we take it apart and check it out, then put it together again so the customer does not have a problem.
That kind if service is why we sell millions in bikes each year and in a sucko economy we are doubling our store size.
BB30 works fine as long as you know what you are doing.
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Old 01-29-12, 06:03 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I disagree on a number of levels with you what you write, but more in philosophy then any major difference in opinion.

Yes marketing drives sales and to a degree product differentiation and hence lack of standardization. I have worked in product development my whole life. It isn't as much of a marketing game as it is to try and put out a better product for less money to sell more product at a higher profit. So while lack of standards can be bothersome, it can and is worked around. Pick what you like. For example, I believe Specialized makes the best road bikes in the world. This is my opinion. I believe they have the best engineering and engineering is what I am about. They offer a wide array of product...threaded BB, alloy cup BB30 and plastic cup PF30. Do I still prefer a threaded BB? Yup...Specialized makes their Roubaix Pro in a threaded BB so I purchased their frameset. They also sell the whole Roubaix Pro bike with DuraAce or Sram in BB30. So I made a choice and happy with it because I like Campy and Campy cranks bolt best to a threaded BB. If there is a difficult match it is Campy cranks to BB30 and PF30 in spite of Campy selling adapters which don't work well.

OK...so there is a lack of standardization now, mfr's are doing their own thing and now we have a pleathora of choices. Pick what you like.

Second point is...BB30 whether you like it or not is directionally correct. You may not believe it is but it is to performance. It is both lighter and stiffer. Does it matter to an average cyclist like me? No. But a larger hollow crank with bigger bearings is lighter. A larger shell BB is stiffer. Connect that larger BB shell to larger chain stays like most manufacturers now do and you have a stiffer BB and more efficient energy transfer. Is there diminishing return with all this? Yes...I can't feel the difference. But keep in mind a bike is not just one part but the sum of its parts. Optimize everything...including skinny seat stays, downtube to head tube connection...for example all headsets are integrated now and Specialized has a tapered 'cobra' headtube..with 1 3/8" lower bearing. Why not 1 1/2" lower bearing? Too stiff and more frontal area. So bikes are a work in progress and they are leaps and bounds better than they ever have been. Further bikes today including the class leading Roubaix have never had a better ratio of vertical compliance to torsional stiffness. Designers have been able to separate the two which just 5 years ago wasn't the case. So racers don't have to get beat up like they used to if they wanted a fast bike that would efficiently transfer power to the crank to speed on the road.

Most don't like using loctite for setting up their BB. This flies in the face of old conventions and paridigms. But it is pretty simple really. Press the bearings in with a bead of loctite around them and let set over night. Get the right preload on the crank so the balls don't rattle between the inner and out bearing races and you have a dead silent and super stiff and light crankset. Re-grease the bearings on the frame. When they get crunchy knock them out with what you choose...any kind of stick or even a screwdriver. Takes ten minutes to install BB30 bearings and a crank. Unfortunately, many can't seem to bed the bearings properly or adjust the preload on the crank per manufacturing recommendations...whether mechanical preload like Shimano with adapters or Rotor cranks...or wavewasher which is most of them...from Specialized to Campy..to Sram, Cannondale etc.
We will see what the future brings...whether BB30 gives way to PF30 because it is cheaper to make and less prone to creak because plastic cups are less prone to resonate...or another BB comes around that is more robust and yet as light and stiff.

The last point I believe is most important and perhaps where we disagree the most. A BB maybe the center piece of a frameset in terms of its stiffness and lightness but it is by far the most important part as long as the frame has a good BB and BB30 certainly is that and can be argued it is better. So choosing a frame because it doesn't have a threaded BB is bad advice. First you choose the frame and then put a crank on the bike that works with that BB. If I were younger and more flexible and still raced I would have bought a Tarmac or Venge instead of a Roubaix. I may still own a Roubaix for long training miles because it is so stiff and capable in spite of its more comfortable ride and geometry...but a Tarmac would likely be my race bike of choice. Specialized has made the decision to sell the Tarmac only with BB30 and PF30. Would this dissuade me from buying what I believe to be the best race bike out there? Absolutely not. I would simply mount a BB30 crankset like a Specialized crank which is a Campy clone with hirth joint...or Cannondale's excellent cranks...or Sram Red or Force BB30 cranks...or even DuraAce or Ultegra cranks with wheel mfg spacers because this combo works so well and some believe DuraAce cranks and bang for buck Ultegra cranks are the best in the world inspite of weighing a bit more because of their incredible chain ring stiffness which gives them their precise shifting.

In summary its a great time to be in cycling. Yes the choices can be confusing but there have never been more great choices to make.
PS: A Force BB30 crank is a great choice for your bike...always comes down to value i.e. cost/benefit.
Too logical and informative.
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Old 01-29-12, 06:36 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
Too logical and informative.
Thanks.
PS:Why I am always on probation for somebody turning me in because I insulted them. As long as I can still post and don't have to create a new ID I am happy. The irony of BF, is all my favorite posters get banned...and they are of course many times the most knowledgable.
Congrats on the expansion of your store in spite of our still struggling economy.
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Old 01-29-12, 10:32 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
The last point I believe is most important and perhaps where we disagree the most. A BB maybe the center piece of a frameset in terms of its stiffness and lightness but it isn't by far the most important part as long as the frame has a good BB...and BB30 certainly is that...and can be argued it is better. So choosing a frame because it doesn't have a threaded BB is bad advice. First you choose the frame and then put a crank on the bike that works with that BB.
Other disagreements noted. I believe we are saying the same thing here though. My point was that after picking my frame, I did like you allude to and went with the crank that worked. No preference involved...aside from the desire to not use adapters or other contrivances. Had I purchased a frame with a threaded shell, I would have a threaded Shimano BB/Crank.

My point to the OP was that if he's so hung up on the BB, he ought to perhaps get a different frame. But, if he likes the frame, just go with it and consider the BB30. To me, they are largely the same...just different "standards".
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Old 01-29-12, 11:31 AM
  #34  
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Another vote for the KCNC adapter.

The BB30 shell limits the number of cranks that can be used. To use a Shimano crank, I used this KCNC adapter, see http://fairwheelbikes.com/kcnc-bb30-...et-p-2926.html ;

It has 2000 miles on it since October and is performing perfectly.

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