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BB30 conundrum - Advice needed urgently

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BB30 conundrum - Advice needed urgently

Old 01-27-12, 12:23 AM
  #1  
skeem
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BB30 conundrum - Advice needed urgently

I just got a brand new 2012 caad10 frame, and it comes with bb30. The problem lies with the fact I have sworn off bb30 for years (I have even told customers to put adapters in their bikes so they could still ride shimano cranks). I have always felt like the interface is more prone to making noise, and that the bearing seemed a lot more susceptible to road grit and water...

Now, as my bike is waiting to be built, I must decide between ordering a bb30 threaded sleeve, some adapters to use with bb30 bearings, or some sort of conversion bottom bracket. Id like to do this for as cheaply as possible...

AND (this is probably the biggest issues) I also am married to the Chris King bottom bracket. I have one on all of my bikes an I have the grease injector tool and its awesome. My one bb has given me 20k miles of awesome service and its running as smoothly as ever. I have found no flaws in it whatsoever- maybe some drag with the seals, but it oh-so-smooth.

The question is: is a bb30 adapter setup with 7800 cranks a better option than a threaded sleeve with a King bb? im not 100% concerned about stiffness because when i race i try to be around 135-140lbs so it may not make a huge difference- i also could be wrong and it may make a HUGE difference (please inform me). do bb30's really weight that much less? also, im trying to keep weight down (im "upgrading" from a $3000 carbon frame to a caad which will cost me a tad over $300), would a bb30 shim setup be that much lighter?

Im on the fence here. if you love bb30 adapters tell me why, or if you think "less" stiffness and the 60 grams weight of the threaded adapter is a reasonable penalty to pay for use of a King bb inform me. thanks.
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Old 01-27-12, 12:50 AM
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My 2011 SuperSix Hi-Mod is BB30 and my 2005 CAAD8 is 68mm English threaded with a FSA MegaExo BB. I have FSA SL-K Light compact cranks on both bikes. Honestly, I cannot feel a difference between the two.

I say, use what you like.
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Old 01-27-12, 02:29 AM
  #3  
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I think the logical answer to your question is to buy a new frame. And I say this not to be a smartass but it appears to be the most obvious choice. Here's why:

1) Although I have worked on and sold numerous bikes with BB30 and have not had any creaking issues, I have read enough to know that improper installation could be the primary source of sound. Most of the time customers assume that the creak is coming from the bearing/ frame interface, when in fact it is coming from the axle/ bearing interface and also the wave washer. Try cleaning/ greasing the axle/ wave washer/ retaining bolt and I promise you will eliminate about 90% of potential creaking issues. My personal bike gets a once over only once a year....
2) If you go with a sleeve, then of course you totally miss out on what the frame was designed for. I've never liked the sleeve solution. And if you were to go down this route, you would be better off with a cheaper frame with BSA. I would only go with the sleeve if it was for a powermeter.
3) If you went with the adapter, you gain the larger bearings, but if your point of contention was creaking from the bearing/ frame interface, you are back to square one.

So in summary, go with a BB30 crankset system and resolve creaking issues or sell the frame and get a BSA compatible frame.

Originally Posted by skeem View Post
I just got a brand new 2012 caad10 frame, and it comes with bb30. The problem lies with the fact I have sworn off bb30 for years (I have even told customers to put adapters in their bikes so they could still ride shimano cranks). I have always felt like the interface is more prone to making noise, and that the bearing seemed a lot more susceptible to road grit and water...

Now, as my bike is waiting to be built, I must decide between ordering a bb30 threaded sleeve, some adapters to use with bb30 bearings, or some sort of conversion bottom bracket. Id like to do this for as cheaply as possible...

AND (this is probably the biggest issues) I also am married to the Chris King bottom bracket. I have one on all of my bikes an I have the grease injector tool and its awesome. My one bb has given me 20k miles of awesome service and its running as smoothly as ever. I have found no flaws in it whatsoever- maybe some drag with the seals, but it oh-so-smooth.

The question is: is a bb30 adapter setup with 7800 cranks a better option than a threaded sleeve with a King bb? im not 100% concerned about stiffness because when i race i try to be around 135-140lbs so it may not make a huge difference- i also could be wrong and it may make a HUGE difference (please inform me). do bb30's really weight that much less? also, im trying to keep weight down (im "upgrading" from a $3000 carbon frame to a caad which will cost me a tad over $300), would a bb30 shim setup be that much lighter?

Im on the fence here. if you love bb30 adapters tell me why, or if you think "less" stiffness and the 60 grams weight of the threaded adapter is a reasonable penalty to pay for use of a King bb inform me. thanks.
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Old 01-27-12, 06:38 AM
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Man, am I glad the manufacturers decided to cut production costs by de-standardizing the standard BB!

I remember the good old days . . . about three years ago . . . when nobody ever had to worry about their bottom bracket. And when the Bike Forum BB discussions only centered on "Which way do the threads go?" Alas. You can't overestimate the leverage low production costs have on a manufacturer's decisions.
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Old 01-27-12, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Man, am I glad the manufacturers decided to cut production costs by de-standardizing the standard BB!

I remember the good old days . . . about three years ago . . . when nobody ever had to worry about their bottom bracket. And when the Bike Forum BB discussions only centered on "Which way do the threads go?" Alas. You can't overestimate the leverage low production costs have on a manufacturer's decisions.
Incorrect.

The various BB standards are costing manufacturers PLENTY in tooling cost alone. It is costing component makers who now have to offer more than one version of a crankset. It is costing distributors and shops who have to stock more parts.

None of these people are winning.
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Old 01-27-12, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
Incorrect.

The various BB standards are costing manufacturers PLENTY in tooling cost alone. It is costing component makers who now have to offer more than one version of a crankset. It is costing distributors and shops who have to stock more parts.

None of these people are winning.
Bob, you've never worked around manufacturing, have you? There is a simple truth at work here: Threads are superior bonding interfaces, but threads cost a lot more money than non-threaded surfaces to manufacture. Smooth surfaces are significantly cheaper to manufacture, regardless of the dimension.

I think you MAY be right that pure COMPONENT manufacturers are put to more effort by it. They, in fact, may be perturbed by it.

But bike/frameset manufacturers? They are saving several dollars per frameset. Over an annual production run, it's pretty good additional money going to the bottom line. Velo and others have proven that there's no real performance difference. The only significant benefit of the threadless interfaces is profit, through reduced manufacturing cost.

And bike shops? They are seeing far more labor income from people trying to get their press-in BBs right than they ever saw from threaded BBs. The manufacturers and dealers are doing very well by this. Time will tell whether the short-term profit boost was worth the customer alienation cost.

Last edited by FlashBazbo; 01-27-12 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 01-27-12, 07:39 AM
  #7  
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I have only used Shimano BB's up until I built my BB30 Raleigh Team frame up. I love my Ultegra 6750 crankset and wanted to use it on the new build so I went with the KCNC BB30 adapter and couldn't be happier with it. It uses the same tool that the current Shimano BB's use, you just need 2 of them.

The adapter comes with bearing inserts/covers for both Shimano and Sram.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/kcnc-bb30-...et-p-2926.html
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Old 01-27-12, 07:54 AM
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I have a bike with a BB30 (new) that has developed a creak. I have no concern. I have a great LBS, he's well aware of the issues which seem to be assembly related (although some on BF would say tolerance). I'll take to the shop in a week or so and he'll re-assemble on the spot.

If I were building up something myself and had some reason to prefer BB30, then I would still go ahead, but would probably have the BB put together by a mechanical familiar with proper assembly, whether "green" loctite, proper greasing, etc. YMMV
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Old 01-27-12, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Bob, you've never worked around manufacturing, have you?
Guess what I do for a living? Hint: I work with Taiwanese factories to develop and supply product in the OE.

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
There is a simple truth at work here: Threads are superior bonding interfaces, but threads cost a lot more money than non-threaded surfaces to manufacture. Smooth surfaces are significantly cheaper to manufacture, regardless of the dimension.
For frame manufacturers making carbon frames the cost of bonding in a threaded BB shell vs a BB30 BB shell is a wash BUT for open mold frames they have to open 2 molds so that they can offer BOTH BB30 (or the like) and BSA. That is a SIGNIFICANT investment.

Their cost is in TOOLING and does not lead to increased sales only the ability to stay in the game. Sunk costs.

For private molds the cost is passed on to whomever is opening the mold. It is not any less expensive for the factory BUT it pushes the tolerances onto the frame maker so they have a higher reject rate (if they are doing real QC).

This is a loss.

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
I think you MAY be right that pure COMPONENT manufacturers are put to more effort by it. They, in fact, may be perturbed by it.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
But bike/frameset manufacturers? They are saving several dollars per frameset. Over an annual production run, it's pretty good additional money going to the bottom line. Velo and others have proven that there's no real performance difference. The only significant benefit of the threadless interfaces is profit, through reduced manufacturing cost.
See above. This doesn't match up with the facts on the ground or what any frame factory has ever lead me to believe.

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
And bike shops? They are seeing far more labor income from people trying to get their press-in BBs right than they ever saw from threaded BBs. The manufacturers and dealers are doing very well by this. Time will tell whether the short-term profit boost was worth the customer alienation cost.
Dealers are having to stock more inventory (added skus) without the benefit of increased sales. This tires up capital that could be turned several times elsewhere each season. And if any of the current standard are dropped these items will be dumped at a loss for the shop.

I can't speak to increased profits from service charges as I am several years removed from the shop floor. Perhaps someone who wrenches for a living could address this.
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Last edited by Bob Dopolina; 01-27-12 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 01-27-12, 08:07 AM
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OP. If you go with the sleeve, it is a permanent fix. For that reason I would suggest going with something like the Wheels Manufacturing Adapters. No, you won't be using a CK BB, but at least you have the option to go with BB30 in the future if you decide or if you end up selling the frame.

That said, I've been running BB30 cranks for seven years now. I have had little issue with them. They are just as easy to use and set up as external bearing systems. Anyone who says otherwise just isn't experienced with both systems.

And Flash -- BB30 has been around for nearly 20 years now. Klein started doing it in the 1990s. They just called it something different. Hell, Cannondale didn't coin the term BB30 until 2008. Prior to that it was just the Cannondale System SI (System Integration).
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Old 01-27-12, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Bob, you've never worked around manufacturing, have you?
That's an oops. Bob's been really informative/open regarding the OE world, cultures, mentality, etc, even down to the racing in the area.
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Old 01-27-12, 08:53 AM
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:

Just got my Caad10 frame. Considered adapters and decided to go BB30. Over a dozen team mates using BB30 with no issues across several different crank makes. Saves a few grams too. I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
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Old 01-27-12, 10:08 AM
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maybe i need to make this more clear- IM POOR, IM A BIKE MECHANIC, I HAVE COLLEGE LOANS- i could either buy a bb30 crank or build up a super light tubular wheelset (which hopefully should have a greater effect on my performance than a bb standard). Therefore, Im sticking with my trusty 7800 crankset.

FlashBazbo, i totally agree with you. I remember the good ol' days (4 years ago) when my only bb related issue was whether or not something was italian or english threaded. I digress, but can someone who has more knowledge than me (and I dont mean read up on bb30 or has buddies who use it, I mean someone who has personally used it a lot) explain why a bb30 with adapters would be better than a King bb with a sleeve? I can always sell the King one and get like a kcnc one, are they awesome?
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Old 01-27-12, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by skeem View Post
maybe i need to make this more clear- IM POOR, IM A BIKE MECHANIC, I HAVE COLLEGE LOANS- i could either buy a bb30 crank or build up a super light tubular wheelset (which hopefully should have a greater effect on my performance than a bb standard). Therefore, Im sticking with my trusty 7800 crankset.

FlashBazbo, i totally agree with you. I remember the good ol' days (4 years ago) when my only bb related issue was whether or not something was italian or english threaded. I digress, but can someone who has more knowledge than me (and I dont mean read up on bb30 or has buddies who use it, I mean someone who has personally used it a lot) explain why a bb30 with adapters would be better than a King bb with a sleeve? I can always sell the King one and get like a kcnc one, are they awesome?
As I said, the sleeve is a permanent change to the frame. It cannot be removed. If you intend at some point to sell the frame, it will no longer be a BB30 frame.
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Old 01-27-12, 10:19 AM
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First I had noise issues with my BB30 and re greased the interfaces which took care of the noise. I wanted to have a compact crank and bought these adapters to use an Ultregra crank.
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Old 01-27-12, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by skeem View Post
IM POOR, IM A BIKE MECHANIC - I could either buy a bb30 crank or build up a super light tubular wheelset
I see then. My mechanic recommended the press in FSA adapter as it can be removed and he has had good success with it.
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Old 01-27-12, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by skeem View Post
maybe i need to make this more clear- IM POOR, IM A BIKE MECHANIC, I HAVE COLLEGE LOANS- i could either buy a bb30 crank or build up a super light tubular wheelset (which hopefully should have a greater effect on my performance than a bb standard). Therefore, Im sticking with my trusty 7800 crankset.
Why not just sell the 7800 crankset and use the money to buy a bb30 crank? Then you would still be able to build the wheelset and not have to worry about adapters.
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Old 01-27-12, 11:01 AM
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I have removed it before 3x for a pain-in-the a$$ customer and it works just fine. Also, Its damn hard to find any of the adapters, no suppliers have them in stock! I have this sexy new bike and it cant be built up- it sucks.
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Old 01-27-12, 11:04 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by peteydink View Post
First I had noise issues with my BB30 and re greased the interfaces which took care of the noise. I wanted to have a compact crank and bought these adapters to use an Ultregra crank.
I've used those adaptors for (both Shimano and SRAM/GXP versions) on my new BB30 frame and they work great (but I only have thousand miles or so in). I still prefer the threaded BB, it just seems like there is less to go wrong. I could'nt care less about the minimal weight and stiffness differences that some claim with the BB30. If the frame were available with a threaded BB, I would have choosen that. If I were to buy a new crank right now, I would not buy a BB30 version since there is not a way to swap it to a bike with threads. I don't see much downside in using a Shimano or GXP crank with the adapters on a BB30 frame (but time will tell).
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Old 01-27-12, 11:22 AM
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Apparently TS you have some psychological pre-disposition regarding BB30 and dislike it.

That being the case, I agree with another poster, get another frame and don't buy a CDale, or any bike with BB30. Adapters add weight, along with the different cranks you will run, somewhat defeating the purpose of a BB30 native setup IMO.

Thus...don't do it. Seeing cups/adpaters installed on BB30 frames and guys running Shimano cranks...I always LOL a little when seeing how stupid it looks.
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Old 01-27-12, 12:24 PM
  #21  
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If you're really sworn off BB30 then you bought the wrong frame, get a new one. If you're okay with it then get an adapter installed and consider it permanent and get the bracket to match. I'm a big dude and my BB30 Supersix hasn't given me any problems in 2 years and I installed the bearings myself with no loctite (fyi, I'm not a pro wrench). I was riding a 2010 Sram Red crank and lately been riding the Quarq S975 PM. GL in whatever you decide.
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Old 01-27-12, 12:41 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Bob, you've never worked around manufacturing, have you? There is a simple truth at work here: Threads are superior bonding interfaces, but threads cost a lot more money than non-threaded surfaces to manufacture. Smooth surfaces are significantly cheaper to manufacture, regardless of the dimension.

I think you MAY be right that pure COMPONENT manufacturers are put to more effort by it. They, in fact, may be perturbed by it.

But bike/frameset manufacturers? They are saving several dollars per frameset. Over an annual production run, it's pretty good additional money going to the bottom line. Velo and others have proven that there's no real performance difference. The only significant benefit of the threadless interfaces is profit, through reduced manufacturing cost.

And bike shops? They are seeing far more labor income from people trying to get their press-in BBs right than they ever saw from threaded BBs. The manufacturers and dealers are doing very well by this. Time will tell whether the short-term profit boost was worth the customer alienation cost.
I'm the guy making this stuff, and I'd rather run a threaded BB shell. I don't have to worry about the tolerances so much.

But it would take a bit longer. The BB30 shell I just have to run a finishing pass with a nice sharp tool, it's not that big a deal and on a lathe the finishing passes are faster than the roughing. The threads will take a couple of passes.

Yea, the BB30 ones are probably cheaper in the long term. But don't they have a little groove in there? That'll even it up a bit, that's a tool change.
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Old 01-27-12, 12:52 PM
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there's nothing wrong with square taper.
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Old 01-27-12, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by skeem View Post
I have removed it before 3x for a pain-in-the a$$ customer and it works just fine. Also, Its damn hard to find any of the adapters, no suppliers have them in stock! I have this sexy new bike and it cant be built up- it sucks.
Some companies have them in stock as they knew this would become an issue right about now...
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Old 01-28-12, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
As I said, the sleeve is a permanent change to the frame. It cannot be removed. If you intend at some point to sell the frame, it will no longer be a BB30 frame.
Since you stated this twice in this thread, I will chime in. A threaded BSA sleeve is NOT a permanent change. Technically its not a permanent change for a CAAD frame in particular because of a ****genous aluminum BB and can be pushed out without any injury to the frame. Also, Sram takes the position that it is permanent for BB30 frames with carbon shells...but...the truth is...they are just covering their liability. If you use Loctite 680 and a touch of heat for removal, the threaded sleeve will push back out without incident. The concern for permanency is...when pushing out a pressed in BSA threaded sleeve, the alloy cups insert molded into the carbon shell will dislodge. This 'may' be only an issue if using a more permaent Loctite which I would always avoid in this application. No problem if you use Loctite 680 as the molded alloy races inserted into a carbon shell can't tell the difference between whether you are pressing in a threaded BSA sleeve like shown below...or BB30 bearings.

OP...OK...you want to stick with your old DuraAce cranks and you have a BB30. On the cheap and effective?...slam dunk for wheel mfg inserts. Loctite BB30 bearings to your frame, press in the plastic inserts into the ID of the bearings, mount your DuraAce cranks and good to go. This method is used widely with excellent result. If you must use your BB...then push in the sleeve below with Loctite 680.

A few more points:
Bob is extremely knowledgable. And Bob...I am still running your computer genie mount and it is superb.

Flash doesn't know how to set up a BB30 and why he always comes to BB30 threads and disparages the design. BB30 is excellent with proper execution. Some guys shouldn't wrench on bikes and unfortunately many that are mechanically challenged own computers and come here to share their lack of insight.

So OP...those are your options. I would suggest BB30 cranks without your budget contraint but DuraAce cranks are superb and most of us couldn't tell the difference anyway not only in stiffness but handful of grams saved. A further aside is...Wheel Mfg. adapters help mitigate creaking because the delrin material they are made from is a natural sound damper. Also...the reason why Ultegra and DuraAce cranks work so well with BB30 with adapters is because they have adjustable preload and no wave washer.
Much of creaking has to do with not only improper bedding of BB30 bearings at set up...but insufficient axial preload due to crank spacing. Also, if bearings aren't properly seated in set up...they will seat over time due to cyclical axial loads, introduce more axial clearance and hence be prone to creaking. BB30 can't creak if bearings are good and properly set up.
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Last edited by Campag4life; 01-28-12 at 08:01 AM.
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