Experienced training advice from racers.....
 

I have been doing training group rides for several years with racers. I have trained with various level racers on there group rides, Cat 4- Cat2. Is it possible to truly compete with only 7 hours per week training ? Once the season is in full gear some of this guys are good for 250-400 per week. I know I can hang for 85 percent of the time, but time seams to be the limiter.... I know training gains acheived is personal..intervals..strenght.. Any thoughts?

Yes, you can compete on 7 hours per week, especially in the lower categories where race length is relatively short. Cat 2 and above not so much. Focused training instead of "going for a ride" can make a big difference.

150 miles a week is sufficient if you don't mind skipping the fitness type races (hill climbs, road races). Even in shorter TTs you'll be fine.

If you're riding with Cat 2-4s, you should ask them. They'll either ignore you, tell you never to race, or tell you what they actually think. My guess is that if you can do group rides with them you should be fine in races.

You just need to watch the surge bits of the ride - that's what gets racers sawed off the back. Think of where you get dropped. If you get dropped "only when the pace goes over 30 mph" then you need to do some work because races will always go over 30 mph at times. If you get shelled with a few others then that's okay, you're getting shelled with other racers. If you get dropped on descents (typically because of poor cornering), you'll need to work on your cornering.

So why is it that everyone is concerned with volume ? Always looking for the that sweetspot of getting stronger or sliding down.
It seams that most find the 10 hours per week is key..

Because there's a big difference between minimally fit for competition and optimum performance.

In my experience 10 hours a week is the minimum buy-in to sit at the table. During the last two seasons, I was just around 10 hours and had some positive results with Carmichael's Time Crunched program, plus bike commuting. But I wasn't really competitive. This year, due to a change in work situations, I've been able to be more flexible and have been able to put in longer sessions on the bike. I've hardly done any high intensity work and have focused on raising my functional threshold power (FTP) by going on longer rides where I push 75-90% of my FTP for 60-120 minutes.

I can really see the difference. Last summer I could help my team by chasing down breaks or attacking in the first half of the race, but I was worthless at the end (assuming I hadn't been dropped). Now, I'm there at the end. It should be obvious, but I've finally figured out that it doesn't do any good to have great 1' and 5' power if you're not around to use it when it counts.

Now, like I said, this is just my experience. And you may have good results with focused interval training at under 10 hours a week (just see Waterrockets, for example). You will be able to hang on the big race rides, but to get to the next step requires a bigger base. There is no free lunch.

True..

I guess that why I can last only 85% of the time. 9-10 hours is doable in the summer months. Thanks for the honest feedback!

7 hours seems a little light, 10 might be OK.
But it all depends.
In my experience, for CAT 5, don't worry about it too much. Get out there and do your 10 races. Get the experience and feel for the riders in your area. I am not sure where you are racing, pack size and the fitness of the riders plays a big difference. For example, racing in NYC, the packs were always pretty large (expecially CAT 4), but the fitness ranged vastly. It was hard to podium, but somewhat easy to stay with the pack. Go to Boulder, CO and generally the riders are much more fit and have better skills and 10 hours a week of riding will not cut it.

I race 35+ 3/4 and train less than 10 hours a week. Sometimes like 2 hours/week. I curse myself for not training more and would obviously benefit from it. But you'll never know where you'll be until you go out and race.

Part of volume is accumulated base, meaning the years of experience before this particular season. It's all part of the adaptation process, where a new racer trains relatively unused muscles into getting fit. If there's been 1,000 hours of prior training, you don't need as much base. So, for me, with (ahem) 29 seasons already under my belt, if I miss out on an hour or three of training right now, well, it won't kill me. Plus, honestly, the season doesn't count as much to me as to a new racer. If I'm not good this year I figure I'll have another year to do it. For someone that just got into racing it'd be really hard to skip riding every weekend (i.e. "a few hours") and still be okay racing, and every race is a new experience so it's exciting and important.

I've tried to do the high intensity, low hours approach, where I'm training (not racing) really, really hard for short intense rides (generally 30-45 minutes long). I found that unless I had a solid base of hours in the winter I wasn't good with just short intense workouts. I need that solid base first, and I need races (most of my races are 1 hr long, give or take, so add 0-60 min warming up and I have 1-2 hours riding on a Sunday).

I've gotten by for a full season, complete with an odd win in a Bethel, plus high places in other races (2nd was the highest), on 150 hours for the whole year. I did about 50 hours in Jan/Feb (about 30+ of them in a training trip to SoCal) and raced after that. Virtually no serious group rides, just races and maybe an hour loop near my house. I raced many of the Tuesdays (1 hour) and some Wednesdays (track racing, maybe an hour of racing).

This question is partly determined by who you picked for parents.
I rode about 8000 miles last year. This year I've been doing planned intervals, and working really hard at them, while mixing in some longer rides.
I'm still super slow. So slow I couldn't compete in cat 6 or 7 if there were such things. Sure, I feel better, and I may be slightly better off than I was before, but I will never be quick enough to race. That's life.

You may be on the other end, with the right genes, ready to rock with minimal, but intense training. I hope you are, because it sure looks like fun.

+1 except I don't train as hard as I've accepted who I am and what my limitations are (not that you haven't).

Just do it. I believe there is also a mental part that cannot be accounted for when it comes to racing.

Commit to what you can, buy a one day and give it a try.

Talk to some of the racers in your area. Just don't be offended if they are d-bags - I will never understand why some guys are like this.

Its definitely a balancing act. I see club riders who train and never improve. I know its not the volume only but..interval..climbs repeats..jumps etc
I have ridden only about 5k per year for the last 3 years. limited by job and family. Been very consistent, no big breaks....

Riding is not the only thing that dictates success. The one thing that has not been mentioned through the entire thread is nutrition. Just because you train more and harder doesn't necessarily mean you will get faster. Nutrition is a huge part of this that is often overlooked.

Part of the "not improving" part has to do with exploring limits. I see it too, the same riders doing the same thing over and over and not changing at all. It's not necessarily a bad thing unless that person wants to improve. If they're happy where they are, so be it.

For exploring limits, aka Wolfpit Road:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...ic-and-me.html

Read about the Jamis:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...bike-race.html

When I find myself bogging down mentally (this happens every few years) I'll try some radical things. That hill really hard? Attack it in the 53x14. Does this straight seem kind of slow? Then slam it into the 53x12 and start hammering as fast as possible. I know I'll reach my limits here and there, but it's amazing what you learn on the way to the explosion point.

One huge way to change your perceived limitations is to first enter a race, then, later, enter a hard race. There's nothing like a race to make you realize just how much you don't even know you don't know. You'll be absolutely floored at how fast some of these guys go, how long they can sustain efforts, how fast they go around corners.

Then when you think you know, because you're racing, you enter a hard race (like if you're a 4, do a 3-4; if you're a Masters, do an open Masters race; if you're a 3, do a P123). Stay involved, even if it means you get shelled in 3 laps. You'll be absolutely floored at how fast some of these guys go, how long they can sustain efforts, how fast they go around corners.

Sound familiar?

It's like when I did one of my earlier Cat 2-3 races. I entered the for training as I was a newly minted Cat 3. I followed a guy I used to race against (and he beat me regularly) in an attack into a long sweeping curve, the first turn at New Britain (on my helmet cam clips look for Nutmeg State Games or New Britain). It's a curve that you pedal through because if you coast you'll get in everyone's way. Well, I followed the Cat 2 into the turn at warp speed and not only did we not pedal, we had to brake to avoid going off the road. We both laughed about it, got back going, and waited for the field. He told me we'd been going 42 mph when we started to drift. Normally you enter that turn at 28-30 mph, and on a fast lap maybe 30-34 mph. 42 mph was a different world.

When I was pedaling around San Diego area a long time ago I rode on some highway - well the bike path next to it - near a big stadium (Orioles?). I went up a climb onto a plateau area nearby, and after not finding any way back down to the highway, I went down the same hill back to the highway. I knew that I'd have to take an "exit" off the downhill onto a ramp onto the highway. It's a gradual curve, nothing major, so I didn't think much of it. I sprinted at the top of the hill, started to spin out, and went into an aggressive tuck. The ramp came up on the right and I started to turn in. Except the bike wouldn't turn in. I had to really force it to move off line, it was a bit scary how much it didn't want to turn. What I didn't realize is that I was going 57 mph (I thought it was like 45) and at those speeds it takes a bit more to initiate a turn in.

Explore limits.

^^^ Another excellent post, CDR. Thanks yet again :)

So, (roughly speaking, of course) when does 10 hours/wk or so become the "minimum"? I planned my season using Friel's book and as it's only my second season I think I put my annual training hours at around 350. This puts my largest volume training weeks at 9 hours.

I know the whole lecture about overdoing it but it gets really tempting weeks like this where I have 4.5 hours scheduled and read about others considering 10 to be the minimum for competitive riders. I have a road race next weekend (CAT 5) but I'm just starting my base 3 period and I don't feel very strong, maybe for lack of high-intensity training since early fall.

Depends on what your goals are, yo may never have to go that long if you want to be a Cat 4 pack fodder.

Right, that is probably the best starting point right there.
Get Joel Friel's The Cyclist's Training Bible. It's like $25, and you can probably find it on sale for less (which is less than the cost of one race registration fee). IF you read it, it will be the best cycling related money you have ever spent.
Coming on a forum and asking about how much to train for a racing season is a little bit tricky because we are all at different levels. So go with read Joel Friel's book and it will help you SO much more than this forum will. No offense BF.

I'd like to move as far up as possible, although I don't mind taking my time getting there (I'm only 24--most of the guys I race with/against are late 20s, early 30s). I don't have any notions of becoming a world-class rider, but within the next five years or so I'd like to be a competitive CAT 3/able to hang on in a CAT 2 field.

I guess I'm asking if "ride lots" is a better routine for a new-ish rider or if I'm better off sticking to my structured plan despite its limitations.

Sometimes you just put the book down and ride. Your 10 hours and a seasoned racer's 10 hours will be different. It's good that you are following a plan but in my opinion it's overkill to follow Friel's plans as a Cat5. Don't take this as a put down. I just think that new racers should develop a feel for training and racing before following rigidly structured plans.

Yeah, except the part about the San Diego Orioles. ;)

Cardinals?

I looked up San Diego Stadiums, and I think the road behind Qualcomm is "the" road. Mission Village Drive.