:(

it seems to me that most people who have a dismissive or abstinent view of alcohol have personally experienced significant negative consequences as the result of alcohol abuse, either from themselves or someone close to them.

that's fair.

...but the rest of us should be able to enjoy that glass of red wine with dinner or beer with your co-workers at lunch without hearing your story, even tirade in some cases.

It's tiring.

Anyone who is of drinking age in this society (socal) is well aware of the harmful affects of alcohol, both physically and emotionally.

Speaking of evil -soda is evil. I'm not sure which is worse, diet soda with the nerve agents in it, or sugary crap with corn poison. Even pure cane sugar isn't the greatest, but IMHO the alternatives are much worse.

I would say most people who have never had a drink also have this in common. My point is that alcohol is one of the single most prevalent and passive destructive forces in polite adult society.

I have never had a problem with this, the problem I have is that those in the wine at dinner crowd think the rest of the world can behave just like you when real life examples (numerous examples) prove otherwise. That is also tiring.


...and yet each night without exception is filled with examples of why, while true, this statement is irrelevant.

I understand your need to be understood as a social drinker, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I was a drinker for half my life, but because I quit doesn't mean I want you to. I am simply asserting that the dangers and harmful effects of alcohol far outweigh the benefits.

In my ten years working at a bar, I attended no less than seven funerals, knew ten people who died directly from drinking-related issues (seven of the ten were the funerals), know three people who have served over 30 days in jail for excessive DUI and now must drive around for two years with an Interlock device, pay steeply higher insurance rates and live with the stigma. While this may seem like an extraordinary example, it is what really happened to drinking buddies, not a sum of random patrons who have had negative experiences.

After all those red flags you'd think I would've quit sooner, but I 'had a handle on it.'

The good things about drinking? I can say that I have networked well in a drinking environment, and have landed two good jobs through friends of friends of drinking buddies. Certain wines/beers taste good with certain foods. Average looking people get laid more often (thank you, the 80's), and one can karaoke and dance much better while drunk.

It ain't all bad, it is just dangerous in how it crosses from moderate to excessive while one isn't looking.

Y'all keep on drinking. :innocent: Of course if you're just putting in tons of junk miles, it won't matter anyway. :thumb:

http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowl...ibrary-section

I have a fairly healthy respect for alcohol - I have a family history of alcoholism. The trouble with alcohol is that one of the first things it effects is your judgement. That makes knowing when you've had too much more difficult. I have one drink about 4-5 days a month. I enjoy a good beer or a nice glass of merlot every now and then and see no problem with that. I know a lot of people who drink very responsibly

Its easy to get worked up over alcohol though. People get drunk and do destructive things and that is tragic. From a health standpoint, I would bet sugar kills more. Fructose has a similar effect in your liver to ethanol and it doesn't matter if the fructose comes from corn or cane - its all the same. The point is, having a few indulgences every now and then, be it a glass of wine, a beer, or a slice of pie, is not the issue. When those fairly harmless things start to cause harm, you have to deal with it.

Why is it that most drinkers don't want to drink alone?

Agreed.

Perhaps if I had more negative experiences with alcohol in my life (im only 25) I would have similar sentiments. I'm sure there's more to come.

I come from a very large, loose and liberal mexican catholic family where drinking is certainly part of the culture. My first experiences with alcohol were in a controlled environment where I was surrounded by family and people who care about me. I think because of this background I've learned to treat it with respect and moderation. As a younger kid (high-school), it wasn't some forbidden fruit that the mere idea of caused excitement, like alot of my friends.

Some people can handle grown-up rights & responsibilities like alcohol and some people just can not.

There are many other things in this world besides alcohol that can be destructive if one can't be trusted around them and not abusing them. Abstaining from everything that can be self-destructive if abused might be an option -but for those among us who tend to have issues with adult responsibilities and adult-level moderation skills will probably just find something else to mess their lives up with if they lack the self-control to not abuse things that have a possibility of being abused.

Projecting one's own limitations or lack of self-control onto others (or worse yet on an inanimate object like ethanol) may be just another symptom of the overall problem. This is the self-righteous attitude that many of us have mentioned regarding a few of the non-drinkers who have so far commented and perhaps the reason why this discussion has panned-out the way it has.

...and now off to Fiesta Island for some threshold intervals.

Hopefully that single Firestone Walker IPA I had last night w my gf at Dave and Busters won't ruin my workout ;)

grasping and aversion are both unhealthy modes of behavior.

for some people, it's the only way.

for the rest of us, it's a life-long goal to find the middle way.

/buddhist rant

Or another way to look at it is everybody here are addicts in one form or another - cycling, running, gym workouts, drugs, alcohol, etc. Addictive personalities bring us to these activities.

I remember a t-shirt when I ran saying "there's no problem too big or complicated you can't run away from"

+1

i hope you are aware that our human brains have receptors for cannabinoids.

again, you can always vaporize, eat, drink, or rub it in. im not saying its great for everyone, or that you MUST use it; however, there are proven benefits from use and it is one of the least harmful things in existence. you cant overdose on it, and there is no physical addiction.

cannabis has a laundry list of positive effects.

Neurogenesis:

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/25509

from abstract, "We show that both embryonic and adult rat hippocampal NS/PCs are immunoreactive for CB1 cannabinoid receptors, indicating that cannabinoids could act on CB1 receptors to regulate neurogenesis. This hypothesis is supported by further findings that HU210 promotes proliferation, but not differentiation, of cultured embryonic hippocampal NS/PCs likely via a sequential activation of CB1 receptors, Gi/o proteins, and ERK signaling. Chronic, but not acute, HU210 treatment promoted neurogenesis in the hippocampal dentate gyrus of adult rats and exerted anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects."

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/307/2/173.abstract

abstract: "Conclusion Occasional and low cumulative marijuana use was not associated with adverse effects on pulmonary function."

the Nixon commissioned Shafer reports/commission of 1972; argues in favor of decriminalization and counters anti-cannabis propaganda...Nixon (unsurprisingly) ignored.

http://shafer.allegheny.edu/public.html

go watch "the union" or any other number of good documentaries.

2006 UCLA study
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0526083353.htm

University of Wisconsin-Madison from 2008: cannabinoids and targeting cancer cells
http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/co...68/2/339.short

excerpt: "People who smoked more marijuana were not at any increased risk compared with those who smoked less marijuana or none at all."

I would disagree with that definition of "addiction". Addiction to me is when you become so obsessed with something that you allow it to cause illogical harm in other areas of your life. Its very possible to be really into something, even alcohol, without it damaging other areas of your life. I do agree that it is very possible for anyone to be addicted to pretty much anything most would consider harmless or even beneficial. Addiction is just going too far.

Weren't you looking for "smoking" related cycling clothes a few months back? Aerotech carries cycling shorts of that nature.

My boss seems to be addicted to me coming in to work.

Also to my point, while it is not without exception, I was also trying to illustrate how time and age change our perspective. Generally in my experience, life was freaking great until I hit say, my mid-30's. While this is not a hard and fast milestone, when we are younger, we tend not to worry about the future as much. It does catch up to us in one way or another.

I was you 22 years ago. All of what you say is very familiar, and not wrong, just from a younger point of view. Time changes you.

haha

moar haha

Jesus H Christ that guy is a killjoy. He even looks like a huge curmudgeon. I wonder if he sees everything in life through the prism of how destructive it is to your physiology, grumbling on about how you don't want to eat that biscuit are you kidding me that thing has refined starches and hydrogenated fats and too much salt and dairy and blah blah blah blah.

Asceticism:

The practice of strict self-denial as a measure of personal and especially spiritual discipline.



If that is what floats your boat then go for it. To me, life is to be enjoyed with all its pleasures to the fullest.

In most cases though, the smoke from cannabis is not really the problem, it is obviously smoke... but the typical issue is that due to the substance being historically illegal it has been distributed through less than reliable channels aka: drug dealers. This of course does not apply to home grown etc, but for those who did not have a tree in the backyard or the closet with a lamp... they would go elsewhere. This is where the problem starts, because the person(s) cutting the substance down to individual delivery packages do not clean off the crystal meth or acid off the table... why bother? So... you end up getting more than mary jane...

Have you ever packed a bowl or rolled a joint in your life? How do you cut whole bud? Tell me how. I really would like to know.

Possibly because they've been told that drinking alone is a sign of alcoholism.

You were ~this~ close. Sure, some pot dealers deal other drugs, but your scenario is out there. IME, friends who are pot users often do other drugs, and that's how people get introduced and can try different drugs. That's the "gateway" aspect of the drug. It applies to alcohol as well.