I guess you're using 'hammering' in a very specific way, then. I use it any effort that feels pretty dang hard. I think you're using it more like an all out final sprint - I'd rather call those sprints as opposed to hammering, since you can definitely hammer for an hour, whereas you can't sprint for an hour.

Either way, you gotta ride hard and feel the hurt to get better. Even the pros acknowledge that cycling is largely about taking the suffering on the bike, both in practice, and then in the races.

You can do all the technique drills you want in cycling, but you're not going to get any faster unless you work harder, and usually a lot harder.

On the bike, you can hammer at any level - it's just relative. This guy might only be able to hammer a few miles of a measly 10 mile ride, but it'll yield more benefit than riding easy for those 10 miles.

Damn bro, I gotta git me summa dat stuff !! Sounds kick-ass

10% alc. and you only have to drink one...........no guilt!

But how many did you really have ?

Protip: Stoplights/signs hurt your average speed.

i consider anything in my zone 5 hammering. Where if I did it too long, I'd burn out to no recovery. I've worked really hard to make sure I get my conditioning to where I rarely hit that zone. I started out hitting my zone 5 at least every 3 minutes when i started out this year, now I might hit it once, and its usually on a super super hard climb or on an all out sprint. The hammerfest brought it out a bit more, but these guys are pacing at 25-30 at times and it was burning me out. I stuck with it and the route which i normally finish with a 18-19 avg, I finished with a 22.6 which is a personal best.

this is the ride at the hammerfest...pretty much getting dropped.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/166903658

this is the ride at the hammerfest without getting dropped.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/169228564

they are a week apart. The ride is actually 23 miles but the first bit starts out with a slow 13mph pace with all 3 groups as a warm up which i dont start my garmin until we take off with the A group.

I did 3 solo rides on this same route with 18 avg in the week between with good rest and only spun a 12 miler the day before just to keep loose but not tire myself out.

heres the comparison...
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/c...yId2=166903658
I got pretty much gained 3.1 mph average with the same effort.

Only a valid comparison if you're drafting on both or not drafting on both. If you got dropped, you lose the draft, and there's pretty much most of the missing 2-3mph.

My drafted rides which are not even as hard as my solo efforts typically average 2mph faster than my solo rides, which are actually done at a harder overall effort.

sorry, i was going back to edit. I drafted on both, I wasn't strong enough to even pull on the first by a long shot. Like I said, I've been out for awhile and really working on getting my conditioning up, with good conditioning comes good averages, or consistent averages. I can do that same route solo at at least a 19 or close to 20 if I give it a good solid pull, but thats about all I got right now, give it another month and I will be doing it at 21 solo, which is my personal best, 21.1 on that particular route, the climb at the end, or middle is what kills the average.

Regardless of how I got to these figures, the OP just wants a higher avg. Him hammering for long periods of time will ultimately result in a lower avg. if he doesn't have the conditioning to sustain it, which goes back to the "it doesn't get easier, you just get faster" saying.

Even drafting, if he rides with a group that only keeps the effort at a slightly elevated level, hit fitness and his average will increase over time. If they hammer away from him he will get burn out and get dropped, slowing the group or finishing alone...either way slower.

and I did say that hammering under the right conditions is ok, like doing intervals twice a week. Thats my next step, now that my endurance is returning, I need to work more on strength. Hill repeats and intervals are in my near future, twice a week.

sometimes i feel like i push too hard towards the end of the ride and i get this chill feeling running down my back like im really cold, is that bad?

Protip: Stoplights/signs are just naturally occurring intervals.

I still think your definition of hammering as strictly zone5 stuff is wayyy too narrow. Most cyclists don't limit hammering to max-HR zone5 work. My zone4 and even upper zone3 stuff is hard (and fast) enough that I and most nonelite riders would consider it hammering, but I can hold that zone4 for a good 45-60 minutes.

You're really talking about sprinting or all out efforts, which can be sustained for short periods, like 5 minutes or less. That's hammering too, but a very specific part of it.

Obviously OP should do a range of training, but riding fairly hard should be a big part of it if he wants to get faster. Doing sprints all-out is part of that, but obviously cannot be even close to a majority of it - even a professional cannot train at zone5 HR all the time, or even close to it.

absolutely, hammering is subjective to each rider, anything in my zone 4 for me is just barely pushing it and doesn't tire me too bad, its my zone 5 that tends to make me feel like I'm giving a maximum effort (as it should) and am hammering.

I could easily discern that the guys I ride with might not feel like they are hammering when I'm trying to keep up with them on tuesdays and I"M hammering.

I wouldnt worry about average speed, but if you want to get faster, yes, you will get faster just by riding more if you've just started out. Eventually, you will plateau. If you still want to get faster, you have to push yourself more. Do that a while and you will plateau again. If you continue to want to get faster, you will eventually need a deliberate training program. Eventually, genetics will become your limit and you wont be able to do any better.

Tips my old coach (a former European pro) taught me to get a faster avg. speed:
1. Ride more in the drops. Most of the guys I ride with are rarely if ever in the drops. I try to spend at least half of every ride in the drops. Get used to it and stay low, it reduces wind resistance and optimizes hip angle.
2. Learn to ride "smoothly". Constant acceleration/deceleration is exhausting and counter-productive. Stay seated as much as possible, don't stomp on the pedals. Think "circles" as you pedal. Use the terrain: work the hills and then get rest on descents.
3. Use your gears. I see a lot of guys who never shift. In rolling terrain, you should be constantly shifting to optimize cadence and keep things efficient.
4. Intervals are the best way to train yourself to go faster. I do sets of 90 seconds on, 30 seconds off. Really work them. Do both hill and flat intervals. "Fartlek"-style training is also hugely helpful in training yourself to effectively bridge gaps and deal with pace changes.
5. Ride with people who are slightly faster than you or more experienced. Shift when they do, note the details of how they pedal and their positioning and copy them.

just letting you guys know i can barely keep 19mph over a 6 mile stretch, thats me trying. so how will i do in a collegiate men's D class even with drafting? i can see getting drop after a few laps

1. so if you're in the drops, you use faster muscle?

2. ive been noticing that little thing about smoother pedaling from the 1 o clock to the 7 o clock position of the cranks and i hope thats helping my form.

3. it seems that i'm always stuck on my 50x19 or 50x21. is it good to train in a lower gear at a lower cadence so your muscle will get used to more resistance?

4. 90 seconds of effort or 30 seconds of effort and for how many sets of those do you do of those?

You almost certainly have your Zone4 HR wrong, then. Zone 4 should NEVER feel that easy. Redo your HR testing (if you've done it at all) - you're definitely misinterpreting your HRs.

Zone 2-3 is the 'aerobic' zone, and the upper end of zone3 should actually feel pretty tough for anything over 30 minutes. My Zone4 hurts pretty bad within 5 minutes, and my 2 x 20 minute power is nearly 300 watts.

This!

Screw that! Just put a second magnet on your wheel.

This^. The frustrating thing is that some people are just naturally faster without really trying. They can take a month off and still crush you. When I was a runner, I had to work HARD to get down to a 7-mimute mile pace. Best ever was a 19:30 5K. But I know guys who don't even train who can run a 6-minute pace without even thinking about it. Yes, you can get faster but you will eventually run in to your genetic limit.

pretty much what I said, except a bit more organized and with the aero part, but I figured thats a given.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...at114705AM.png
my zone 4 is super easy, i meant 6 not 5 earlier as far as hammering, even my zone 5 isn't that exhausting for over long stretches, especially if I'm in a paceline.

then it is likely that your max HR is higher than 199.

there are a few highly efficient people out there who don't conform to the chart you embedded, but for most, when zone 4 & 5 are easy that means the HR you are computing from is too low.

Not very aero :innocent:

is riding 32 miles and maintaining speeds of 20+ mph impossible? with or w/o genetics should be doable right?