Ride hard. When you want to stop, ride some more. Recover. You will get faster.

i dont ride much and when i do i can ride for a while without breaks but on the slow side riding at 16-17mph, which averages out to 15mph. i ride about once a week and get about 30-40 miles a week. but this summer i would like to ride 50 miles a day for 5 days a week so that i can ride faster so that i can be like those guys that plow right through other riders effortlessly on a high gear.

Well put.

I guess its relative to the person, how you handle pain and what really gets to you. I personally feel like I've adapted the feeling of being in that zone as my natural fast and steady zone. I'm not exerting myself to a point that can't be sustained over long distances. Zone 5 however gets into the area that can only be sustained for short distances and leaves me needing to recover for a few second before I can mellow out in my 4 again. I tend to thing my pain tolerance is pretty high but I just don't think that 4 is anything to feel super tired over unless you've steady stayed in that zone for something like 2 hours.

There's your problem -- practically no saddle time at all.

Most people in this forum put in 100-150 miles a week and aren't particularly fast. Without a serious training plan you won't be either though you'll certainly be faster than you are now if you're logging 250 miles/week. BTW, if you just put in the miles during the summer and drop back to 40 miles in the fall, you'll get faster (but you still won't be fast) and then lose your speed gains within a couple months.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...at114705AM.png

Yup, your HRmax is clearly incorrect. Even looking at the website you went to it clearly states that Zone4 is race-pace, so by perceived exertion, you just aren't going hard enough to reach your true Zone4. Go redo your testing and HTFU on the test so the numbers really max out. Nobody on this planet can honestly say that zone 5 'isn't exhausting over long stretches'

zone 4 ...i said zone 4. I clearly stated that I cannot maintain zone 5 without tiring out and having to recover for a few seconds before getting back into a steady 4

for me to "redo my zones and HTFU" were talking a 210 max hr...I don't think so, I would pass out at 205 for sure, I've been close to it, I know for sure I would puke vomit and pass out.

Again, you're overestimating how awesome you are. It's doubtful that you have some incredible pain tolerance such that you can magically tolerate true Zone4 efforts for 2 hours whereas even a top pro would have problems maintaining that effort for more than 60 minutes. The simplest, most obvious explanation that you keep ignoring is that your MaxHR is incorrectly low and thus you're actually sandbagging your efforts compared to what they should be. Go and redo your maxHR testing, and go all out - you clearly haven't by your current numbers. If you've got such a high pain threshold, you should be literally on the verge of blacking out if you hit the final seconds appropriately.

I just checked my garmin, and just so you know, because I did not, my zone 5 starts at 185 and there is no zone 6, so my terms in this whole back and forth have been based on my zone 5 being basically close to the zone 6 on the chart.

usually around 188 I feel like I can't maintain this for longer than a few minutes.
anything below 180 is generally just riding really hard, but by no means "hammering"

I thought riding really hard IS hammering.

Yes, the disconnect here is a lot of people go by a 5 zone system, whereas the site you reference uses a 6 zone system. What is zone 5 of the 6 zone system, is probably zone 4 in the 5 zone system.

<---uses a four zone system, never in zone 1. Maybe need to tighten up zones from the bottom? 20 BPM in each zone, starting at 120. No real need to measure under 120.

Either way, I agree that the better test is the HR that's closer to a lactate-threshold type training effort, which tends to be a much better number to guide power and HR training than using these oversimplified maxHR calculators.

That's the point of these 2 x 20minute FTP tests with a powermeter ( or trainer with speed sensor to convert speed to power). You will llikely hit close to your maxHR at the end, but it probably won't be an absolute max. Still you'll have a good number that is a reference for training and is more reliable than a maxHR number. The test still hurts just as bad as a maxHR test if done correctly though - that's an all out effort for 2 x 20, so you'll be drooling at the end if done right.

I'd just throw out that website in terms of its utility to you, honestly. If you're plugging in your numbers and the subjective feeling of zone4 (which it clearly states is race-pace) feels easy to you, it's clearly not working as it's supposed to. Read up on how to train with power or how to calculate HR zones through testing as I've described, and you can make a much better zone training assessment.

I think it is certainly doable. I mean I am 45yo and can average 20-21 by myself on a 15 mile loop around my office without too much trouble. I am certainly not a high level cyclist. I put in maybe 150-175 a week. Nothing too serious with training. I mean I do some variations on intervals and just have fun with it. I like to ride hills, try to max out, but more just to push myself.

We have a local 10mile time trial and I see some local guys in the 25mph range. My best was right at 22.1.

If you can ride in Zone 5 for an hour you're defining your zones wrong and if it wasn't physically painful they're way off.

Functional Threshold Power is the maximum power you can average over one hour and occurs approximately where your body is making lactate faster than it can get rid of it.

With the most accepted zone definitions (from Friel) zone 5 is at least 100% of that.

Basing zones off maximum heart rate is useless because assuming you know your actual maximum heart rate the fraction of it at which you reach your lactate threshold varies both with individuals and training.

Unless you've done a formal test (started pedaling at a comfortable 200W and added 20W/minute until your power is increasing but your heart rate isn't) you don't even know what your maximum is.

The 220-age formula is even more worthless useful since it's an average with a standard deviation of 12. 34% of 20 year olds would have a maximum between 200 and 212 and another 34% 188-200. 14% of 20 year olds would have a maximum of 212 - 224 and 14% 176-188. A few would be in the range 224-236 or 164-176. Zone definitions built around the average could have you not working at all on your hard days or in a permanent state of overtraining.

The right thing to do is get warmed up and ride as hard as you can for half an hour. Your average heart rate over the last 20 minutes is a good approximation for your lactate threshold provided that you remain motivated enough.

Chris Carmichael has zone definitions built around your heart rate in the second of two all-out eight minute efforts with a prescribed warm-up. That's easier to accommodate both psychologically and logistically.

sorry but whats with the zone topics? should i get a heart rate monitor or a watch that has one for training?

You got me. Its modern day mumbo jumbo for training using electronic devices.

Best way to get better at cycling is to get a traditional track bike with a fixed gear of 63-67 inches. Ride as much as you can maintaining a high pedaling rate. Cruising down hills in a 63" gear will get your rpm way high. After several weeks go back to your road bike and you'll fly.

I was responding to DDF's link which is a 6 zone system. So everything you said after this needs to be revised in that context.

I've also seen 7 zones-- 1 through 4 and then 5a, 5b, 5c-- for whatever it's worth.

Nope. Many zone systems split where you're producing lactate slower than you can process it and where lactate production exceeds your clearing capacity in zone 4 or at the 4/5 split. Whether you get one zone (5), one and a half (4 and 5), two (5 + 6), or three (5a, 5b, 5c) after that doesn't change that zone 5 is past your lactate threshold which is the pace a motivated and somewhat trained person can maintain for an hour. If some one is doing an hour in the middle of zone 5 they have the zones wrong and if it's not painful they're really wrong.

Using ddf's link dropping my age in it suggests a 181 maximum heart rate and shows my Zone 5 starting at 161 which is 1 beat shy of my lactate heart rate and ends at 171. 161 is not pleasant after 20 minutes and 171 is about where I produce my maximum 10 minute power which is painful at the end. The text suggests it's good for a 10 or 25 mile time trial implying that the bottom is supposed to be LTHR which is about what motivated people with some training can manage for an hour with going any harder not possible and the overall effects farther into that zone 5 somewhere between not pleasant and painful.

Putting my actual maximum heart rate of 192 in it starts zone 5 at 170 and ends it at 180. That's good for 5-10 minutes ending with pain (hardly a 10 or 25 mile time trial) and illustrates that zones defined around maximum heart rate aren't useful.

That's Friel's system which attempts finer divisions past LTHR. The obvious ones are just past LTHR, VO2 max, and neuromuscular power although moving up the ladder heart rate lag exceeds the time you can sustain an effort so the meanings become hazier.

Good lord BF, I love ya.

Only in this forum will the pedants get their panties so bunched up that they totally lose the OP.

"Er... zone system 5000... er... er... [indiscernible nerd talk]... er... er... lacate... pain threshold... er... flux capacitor... heart rate... er... er... plutonium gigawatt... er... [someone blows nut]..."

OP post count does not always equal right answers. Unlike some I did not take the winter off, Rule 9! Not that my results are of any significance and by your posts you represent yourself as much younger and in better physical condition than myself however I'll share what has worked for me. You want speed first you have to put in the time in the saddle. As others have already mentioned that alone will get you faster to a point. Add in some structured workouts where you focus on speed and speed plus duration and you will exceed where you would be simply by putting in the miles. Rest is important, but rest does not have to equal total lack of activity. Some folks simply do not know "how to train properly." So the answer could be a yes and a yes but it really depends on where the asker is starting from.

And hammering to me is anything beyond 80% effort; listen to your body and you'll know what that means to you without the expense of HRM and other electronics. Cycling is really not all that different from running IMHO and if you look at the changes to the mile record since Bannister broke 4:00 in 1954 the record changed 16 times until into the 80's. Twice in the 90's. HRM are pretty common today and yet they do not seem to help runners train any better. For what it is worth I broke 5:00 min in 9th grade and improved each year until my peak 11th grade with a time of 4:36, still a School JV record. I think it is fair to say I have a bit of understanding of training principals. Ride more, ride hard, HTFU and it does not get easier you just go faster are words to live by. If it gets easier you are slacking and you need to meditate on Rule 5! Word!

I don't know about y'all, but i'm in the no zone when I go for a ride.

Here's a little trick that I use and am sure was not my original idea: Start by trying to average x mph for x miles. If you ride 12 miles, try to average 12 mph. Move on up the scale on longer rides (where there is obviously a limit). I have plateaued at about 17, but will keep trying to get to 20.

I have done the same. There is an element of fun and expectation mixed in.

+3,827

True it's easy to overthink this stuff, but it's also true that a lot of the huge increases in the ability of amateur cyclists and triathletes to approach professional caliber times has been attributed to powermeter usage. This has really shown up in the Kona Ironman, where the gap between pros and amateurs, particularly on the bike leg, has markedly narrowed as of late, and a lot of coaches attribute this to the number of amateurs who now have access to powermeters and coaching with PMs.

Of course, powereters still isn't essential for performance. Still, having a functional knowledge of HR levels and efforts is very helpful for training. A lot of people hate the bike trainer because they have no idea how it's affecting their training or how hard they should be working on it (other than ow...it hurts.) Once you start putting power targets as an objective measure on that trainer, it totally changes how you approach it, from "ummmm, just ride until it hurts and hope you get better?" to "I know that if I'm riding at this wattage for this long, I'm definitely improving!"

Yeah, the but the cool thing is that we all ride for different reasons. I have a friend who is a total gear head. Has every monitor and electronic device known to man. He analyzes his ride data, his heart rate, etc. I say whatever keeps you pedaling is a good thing right?

I don't want to over-simplify things, but the key is just HTFU. I mean push yourself on a regular basis. Ride with people who are faster than you and fight to stay with them. Don't avoid the hills. Ride every day. Don't give up. I can tell you it isn't the faster rider who wins the race, it is the ride who can endure the most pain. Harden up, pedal faster, ride till your legs ache and you want to throw up and then stand up and go a little faster. Trust me, I am not trying to sound like a tough guy here, but I think you would be surprised at what you are capable of if you're willing to push yourself.

OP:

I have found that the best way to get faster is to ride with faster riders. Here's a list of some of the local Sacto group rides: http://www.facebook.com/SacramentoRiverRide/info

Come out, hang on as long as you can, come back next ride and hang on a little longer.

Only ride downhill and you'll get the average mph up a lot.