dbrian

Hi,
I am new to this website. I was hoping someone could answer some questions about a Merlin frame. I am currently riding a Cannondale WSD R800. I am interested in purchasing a Merlin frame. Merlin does not have Women Specific Designed frames and I am beginning to wondered if that really matters. I am 5'6, with fairly long legs for my height, so my real concern is top tube length when it comes to getting a good fit. Any thoughts?
Also, the LBS has some Merlin compact frames arriving this month that he thinks would work for me. My understanding is that the compact frames provide faster accleration and a more nimble performance. I tend to be more interested in long distance riding, vs racing, however, I do want a fairly fast bike, I just won't use it to race very often. Thanks

velocipedio

I think women-specific designs are generally more useful to smaller women. Since women typically have proportionally longer legs than men, someone your size would probably fit a 50cm or 52 cm frame quite well.

Despite all the hype around compact frames, they really don't ofer any performance advantage over traditional frames. The advantage is more the manufacturer's -- Merlin can use less expensive titanium -- though the lower standover height is advantageous to riders with shortish legs. One thing you'll notice is that almost all compact frames feature almost the exact same geometry as traditinal frames except for the angle of the top tube.

One frequent argument in favour of compact frames is that they are supposed to be stiffer because of the shorter seat tube. However, the longer seat post, with the lower collar, not to mention the slacker angle between the top tube and the seat tube probably offset any gains of rigidity. Besides, the place where you usually feel flex in a frame is where the chainstays meet the bottom bracket.

So there's nothing wrong with a compact frame, it's just that there's really no particular performance advantage over a traditional frame.

Having said that, Merlins are beautiful bikes, though I'm not qute sure why you necessarily want to trade in the 'dale.

If you're proportioned like most women [is your inseam around 31"?], then you'll probably want a 52 cm frame with a shorter [90mm] stem. But TRY before you buy!

RacerX

oh man I just have to shake my head.

ANYWAY, Merlin makes great bikes and maybe the appropriate frame with a shorter stem will be fine for you. The Merlin compacts (XLS and Agilis) are probably one of the finest framesets you can buy period. They are so dialed in! Tom Kellogg is just a god with bikes.
One of the differences you will notice on the compacts is the faster steering- maybe too fast for what you want even though the angles on the frame are pretty conservative. Talk to your shop or Merlin about that. Maybe you can get a fork with more rake to slow it up. Try a "standard" Merlin to see the differences and you will be better able to make a decision.

Merlin does custom-measured frames too, if you want to go that route.

Litespeed makes great Ti bikes. Siena and Ghisallo compacts as well as the Ultimate and other 'standard' bikes. Team Lotto/Addecco is riding them this year so they have a little more "race cred" this year. Great bikes nonetheless.
Good luck!

dbrian

Thanks for the input! I'm not trading in my Cannondale for the Merlin, but I spend about 6 months in Florida, and the remaining 6 months in MI. So, I will be buying the additional bike to leave in one of the places.

dbrian

RacerX, I'm interested in learning what you mean by "you are shaking your head". I'm new here and very interested in learning as much as possilbe. I've found it very difficult to separate the truth from marketing in many things -- bikes are no exception! All input/advice is welcome!

RacerX

Nothing to do with you. Good luck with the bike shopping

velocipedio

He's "shaking his head" because we just had this discussion here., and he can't understand how I would fail to see how a minor and largely cosmetic design change [the sloping top tube] that does nothing to alter the overall geometry of a bike could have any performance impact.

"Faster steering," for example, might result from a steeper head tube angle, shorter chainstay length or shorter wheelbase, and I agree with RacerX that a bike with these characteristics would probably feel a bit twitchier and more responsive in turns. The problem is that most compact frames have oly very slightkly different geometries than traditional frames -- a 3mm shorter wheelbase, or a 0.5 degree steeper head tube -- none of which would contribute to any significant handling diferences.

Now, RacerX may say he feels a difference, and I'm sure he does. Tere's a whole lot to bicycles that is highly subjective. It could be that he tried a compact frame with a slightly shorter or stiffer stem, or which had stiffer wheels, who knows? The variables that go into bike handling are many and varied and negligible geometry differences are only a very small part of the equation.

One of my bikes is a steel traditional frame, while the other is an aluminum compact frame. Against all conventional wisdom, I find my steel traditional bike stiffer in the stays and a better climber/sprinter than the aluminum ride.

The bottom line is that you should try the bikes and see which one fits you best. If you like the compact, go for it! Merlin gives many more sizing options for its traditional frames, but you might find the compact frame "just so."

RacerX is right that Merlins are great bikes. If they fit you and they're in your price range, then I doubt you'll be disaapointed.

[This is velocipedio's 1000th post]

MichaelW

If you find your 'dale is the correct size for you, then that is the size you need in your new bike. You will need the same reach from saddle to bars and the same positioning of saddle to pedals.

Measure up your dale points of contact (saddle nose, bars, pedals). I find that the bottom bracket is a good point to use as the origin [0,0] point.
Use a plumbline to mark the x=0 position on the top tube and measure horizontally from this position. This will mean you dont have to worry about the seat-tube angle in your measurements.

There is some scope for increasing the top tube and decreasing the stem (or visa-versa) but this may affect the handling. generally you want a balance between the two. Roughly speaking short frames use about 8cm of stem, med ones 10cm and big frames 12cm

If you buy a smaller frame to get a correct top tube, the head tube may be set lower. This is useful in a time-trialling bike, but for longer road riding you may need a raiser stem.

Merlin are wonderful frames, but not if the geometry is skewed for you. Either look at their custom sizing or for another framebuilder who can make what you need. There are plenty to chose from.

Compact frames work by making the traingles of the frame smaller, and therefore stiffer (for a given tubeset). For smaller sized frames, you already have smaller triangles than the tubeset was designed for, so the "advantages" of the compact design are less apparent than for large riders.

RacerX

Velicipedo,
I dont care what you think and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Just because you think something is "basically the same", everyone else is wrong and based in subjective opinion while the heavens shine down on you with the objective truth? I must not know what I'm doing or set my bike up wrong or it's all in my head? How condescending is that?!

I'm just sick of hearing your one-man-mission about how compacts are the same blah blah blah. I don't care whether you think it's right or wrong.

I have a compact race bike and a standard so I know what I am talking about. I rode 3 months on a Agilis so I happen to know those are wonderful. I own a S-Works compact and Prince standard so I know how these bikes are different. Last season I raced on a TCR1. I saw your cyclocross bike and maybe you don't feel any difference with it. based on that, ALL compacts ride the same? I could say something about how YOUR bike is setup but I won't. You have an opinion the same as everyone else. I don't shove rhetoric down people's throat. I just tell them my opinion and test ride different bikes to compare for themselves.

I almost didn't reply but got sick of this crap. I won't reply to you again.
And I am sorry to sully this thread on someone honestly trying to buy a good bike.

velocipedio

Chill, RacerX.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, only that the performance differences that you have subjectively experienced between compact and traditional frame geometries could very well -- I would say very likely -- be caused by any of dozens of variables, from frame material, butting technology, components, wheels and a whole lot of other things, rather than by infinitesimal differences in geometry.

The only way to be sure would be to spec two otherwise identical frames, one compact and the other traditional, with the same components and test them.

I have never seen a published report outside of bicycle company marketing literature to support the claim that compact frames offer any performance advantages. I'm simply not willing to buy the hype and, until there is objective evidence to the contrary, I would advise other to not buy the hype either.

On the other hand, compact frames are probably no worse than traditional frames -- the differences are minute if they exist at all -- so I doubt there'd be any harm in riding one. Hell, I ride one!

This isn't a personal attack, Racer, I'm sorry you took it as one.

dbrian

Thanks for the replies -- hope everyone is okay out there. Based on everything I am reading it sounds like a traditional frame would better suit my needs. I am interested in a frame that will be comfortable for all day rides, yet is still very quick. I am going to look into the custom Merlin offering to see if I can afford to go that route! I will probably try some racing, but more for fun than true competition. I do however like a fast intense workout on the bike and for long distances! Thanks again!

velocipedio

The key thing is to take bikes for test rides. If you can get both traditional and compact frames on the road for a half-hour each, you can see which you like best. There are so many intangibles and variables [and I'm sure RacerX would agree with me on this] that you should try to avoid buying by specs, whatever your preference.