Bike Gremlin

Maybe I'm helplessly untallented, but, having run, driven bicycle and played footbal since some 4-5 years old, I've noticed improvement when training (athletics, football especially). You know: books, coach, practice etc. Natural just doesn't do for me. Most of my club-mates also improved from being tutored. So, I believe that "instinct" is a very slippery ground to hang on to in getting better.

Seattle Forrest

Walking is actually a pretty complicated thing to do. The timing is important, when you shift your weight, but also where you plant your foot, etc. On some hiking trails, you can hardly enjoy the scenery while you're moving, because you need to focus on where your next foot step goes. And there's a lot of math and physics involved. But nobody thinks about the physics, they just do what comes natural.

It's like riding a bike.

grolby

See the "EDIT" paragraph on the post you quoted. I'm not saying that training and practice doesn't lead to improvement. I'm saying that the act of balancing and steering a bicycle in a turn on a descent is no different from balancing and steering a bicycle anywhere else, and that countersteering isn't where tutoring and learning needs to happen. That would be like trying to get a kid to work on her tennis swing by practicing moving her arms about. If she doesn't have the hand-eye coordination to hold and direct a tennis racket in a relatively deliberate way, she probably needs more development from just living and interacting with the world before taking up tennis. If balancing and steering the bike is a problem for cornering, that rider probably needs more time simply riding a bike. Did someone teach you what steering movements to make in order to ride in a completely straight line? Or did you gradually develop better balance and more precise control of your bike as you spent more time on it? Countersteering skill is developed automatically because it relies on the basic instinct of balance and muscle control to work.

Bike Gremlin

Yeees, it does come automaticaly. But, FOR ME AT LEAST (and most people I know), having learned about and counsciously practiced countersteering has made an improvement. Both on bicycle and motorcycle. Both downhill and flat.

dsb137

Please tell me you're joking...

gregf83 

I understand how it might improve cornering on a motorcycle because in that case if you don't consciously make an effort to countersteer you won't be able to turn sharply/quickly enough to hit your line through a turn.

I've never observed this on a bicycle. I would contend the cornering forces are higher in a crit than on a mountain descent and it isn't necessary to think about countersteering in a crit. The correct line to take isn't that difficult to figure out and it isn't difficult to follow.

Before you learned about countersteering were you having difficulty following the correct line in corners? Or is it more that you learned what the correct line was during your countersteering instruction? I suspect the latter.

Agent Cooper

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I've decided it's all intuitive.

blamester

Motorcycles and bicycles handle the same except a motorcycle has an engine to pull you up straight after the corner and the trail braking is so you don't unload the suspesion to fast and unweight the front which also changes the geometry.If you go to slow on a bicycle you won't be able to get the bike upright again but this is quite difficult to do.
If you are thinking about countersteering your going slow because you should be concentrating on the road, it should be completely natural and automatic, motorcycle or bicycle.
Braking while you are turning will not make you faster get your braking done before you get there. If you can brake through a turn you could've turned harder

mpath

Punctuation and grammar fail! Holy crap I couldn't read this drivel.

sqroot3

For what it's worth, I have ridden bikes since childhood, and have only recently consciously adapted countersteering. It's helped. This thread has been very informative as well.
PS: man is it hard to build up confidence after a wipeout.

gregf83 

Read grolby's explanation above. He has everything correct. Remember on a steep downhill you'll be accelerating through the turn. If you do all your braking before the turn you have to slow down significantly below your traction limits because you'll be exiting at a higher speed than you entered.

DaveSSS 

I guess you never watched the Shlecks go off the road in the tour. Even the pros make big mistakes. They don't push the bars the wrong way, they quit pushing completely and went straight instead of around the corner. Instead of steering, you do nothing and straight off the road you go. It's a common panic reaction and a common cause of motorcycle accidents. Off the road in Colorado may be right down a steep and rocky ravine. I've ridden by rescue crews, going down a ravine to rescue a cyclist. It's better to a least try to make the turn, even if you slide out.

Just because a pro doesn't make a "big deal" out of countersteering probably means that he understands how the bike steers. I don't make a big deal about it either, but after I got more education on the subject, I truly understood how the bike steers. I'm safer, more confident and far less likely to crash.

FWIW, there's a huge difference between the ordinary 90 degree street corner that most cyclists have ridden thousands of times and a 180 degree hairpin, done at 40+, on a road with only a narrow patch of clean pavement, created by car tires. Getting through that successfully requires some skill. A little off your intended line and you're onto some sand and maybe a slide-out.

grolby

Simply, unequivocally incorrect. Braking through the apex is the ONLY way to take the maximum possible entry speed into a corner, and maximizing entry speed is what you MUST do to descend quickly on a bike.

There you go again, claiming that the only reasonable conclusion one could make by watching the Schleck brothers' follies is that they failed to properly countersteer. But that's ridiculous. You are getting at something by talking about a common panic reaction that ends up with the rider straightening out and riding off the road, but it's not a matter of not pushing on the bars, it's a matter of panicking and trying to get out of trouble by braking instead of continuing the turn. But in order to get into a situation where the rider finds him or herself panicking and hitting the brakes, they have to have done something to get into that situation in the first place. And the error usually associated with the panic-braking response is turning in too early, or otherwise taking a bad line that results in an early apex and too much speed for the corner exit. Frank Schleck's tumble into a ravine in the 2008 Tour of Switzerland is a perfect example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1-WSpiTFR0.

He comes in just a bit tighter than the rider behind him, though he might nonetheless have had enough space to make the turn if he hadn't panicked and started braking. The point is that this crash had nothing to do with forgetting to countersteer, it happened because Frank Schleck is a crap descender. It's all down to The Basics, again. He had too much speed for the line he took, thought he was headed off, panicked and braked. You see this exact kind of crash or near-crash ALL THE TIME from pros; Voeckler ended up in a parking lot during a descent in last year's Tour for the same reason, and a couple different riders in this year's Giro rode into a parking lot on a tight right-hander because they misjudged it. And the problem is ALWAYS an error in fundamentals, turning in too early, going in with too much speed or both.


Baloney. Understanding how the bike steers is no more necessary than understanding how I am able to balance on one foot during each stride. It doesn't help me if I'm off-balance and stumble. I understand how the bike steers as well; there was a time when I didn't. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that I've spent a lot more time riding the bike and developing and honing my skill by pure repetition from hundreds of hours a year in the saddle.

There are different degrees of difficulty, sure, but there is no fundamental difference in how one gets around either corner. That 90-degree street corner certainly becomes a lot trickier if you add more speed coming in; likewise, come into that 180-degree hairpin with less speed and it gets a good deal easier to get through. Obviously, it takes skill to take a hard, high speed corner coming down a fast descent. It requires both choosing the correct line and then pointing the bike precisely along that line and holding it. But holding that line does NOT require, and is not helped by, an intellectual understanding of countersteer and how it works. All self-aggrandizing about it aside. After all, I can tell you how skating works, how the push and timing the transfer of weight onto the new gliding foot is important and how you need to balance. Nonetheless, strap some inline skates on my feet and you will see that I am a crap skater, because I don't skate regularly and don't have great coordination with my legs anyway. I knew about countersteer when I was 16 years old, but it wasn't until several years later, after taking up cycling as a significant interest and hobby, that I could ride perfectly straight down the white line on the side of the road. Precision in steering a bike doesn't come from thinking about it, it comes from doing it, until the link between what your brain is telling you about your balance and direction and what you do about it with your hands and body is completely immediate and precise.

carpediemracing 

+1

The biggest error I see in cornering is the early turn in. It's a pet peeve of mine. The Schlecks are terrible cornerers. Ditto Michael Rasmussen. Levi Leipheimer. Andrea Moletta. It's terrible watching them squander time on descents because they're better than that. The thing about cornering is that it takes no fitness. When Levi broke away in one Tour stage and gained something like 5 min, he threw much of it away on the descent. He got dropped by a racer or two who are not necessarily known for their descending (and even if they were all Levi had to do was follow them). If he could descend better the race may have turned out a bit differently.

People that have ridden with me think I'm a good descender. That's not necessarily the case - I just know how to corner. I think about the corners, and the ones I don't know and can't see around I try and figure out what I'm up against. In those situations I'm usually pretty slow, but if I can see my turn out point then it's just basic cornering, nothing special.

https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...-steering.html
https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...ing-lines.html

The only challenge is when something weird happens, like a flat mid turn. My teammate flatted his front tire mid turn right after he attacked. He slid a few feet to the side but was otherwise okay (he was on tubulars - if it was a clincher he probably would have crashed). You can't practice for this, not really. My teammate doesn't mountain bike, doesn't do cross, and doesn't do any kind of bumping drills. He had his normal instincts/reactions and that was enough.

When you see a rider that knows how to corner it's beautiful. Effortless. Watching a master of anything is beautiful. A track racer gave me this link. Insane. Likewise watching Cancellara descend is beautiful.

mpath

It would appear the pedants have taken over.....

Bike Gremlin

If there is enough traction on tyres to not slip when braking in the apex, then there is enough traction to lean even further without braking: making your turn even faster. Trailbraking on really steep roads is another thing though.

JTGraphics

Look I don't think its all that hard to descent fast but that me I love fast winding descents.
That said I do fill that first one should not exceed their convert zone that can have bad results go as fast as you fill conferrable doing.
To descent and hit those turns you should know the road and its turns this includes its radius, the camber (+ — or flat), surface condition and debris (rock, water, sand , etc.)
Then you can determine the line you can take and enter and exit the apex at a safe and fast speed in the straightest line possible, the speed of your entry should be set before you start the turn this means scrub off excess speed before you get to it, for some this can be done late or early the later you scrub off speed (deeper into it) before the turn the faster you will be this means you will be using the front brake more braking into turn takes a confident fill for brakes some have this some don't, this is also were good brakes have a great fill for modulation (then you can brake in the turn) one knows whats going on given the amount of pressure you are applying some people just don't have that fill and never do.


Turning will come natural if you fill confident on your entry and exit at least how I fill.
I know some they are not confident on traction the tires will stick as long as you don't have something on the surface of the road or you don't apply brakes to make it slide.
Bottom line this is the chance you take in the end if you want to descend fast you must know that you always have a chance of going down, and you don't have to be going fast if you hit something on the surface.
Any ways thats kinda my take on this subject I like fast descents myself and thats not going to change for me, I've always been kind of a speed nut LOL, Cars and Motorcycles both on and off road and track yes I dod race that was a while a go but once speed is in your blood it doesn't go away kinda wish I didn't have it I've spent to much on speed LOL.
No matter what you do be safe guys and stay in your limits.

blamester

[QUOTE=grolby;14294048]Simply, unequivocally incorrect. Braking through the apex is the ONLY way to take the maximum possible entry speed into a corner, and maximizing entry speed is what you MUST do to descend quickly on a bike.

Simply, unequivocally incorrect.If you can brake at the apex of a turn you could have turned faster.The apex is after the entry so how can braking at the apex increase entry speed.The tires have a limit of adhesion.If you brake while turning some of the grip is used by braking hence less for turning or vice versa but you cannot exceed 100%
Also when you brake while leaned over the bike will want to stand up and go straight.

ZulloMaster

I kind of solved my own problem....I did get a bike fit last year, but decided to get the most drop from handlebar to saddle (now I think around 3.25 inches). I slid the seat back so it's about 2 inches behind the BB, and put on a 42 handlebar instead of a 44. the perceived difference was fantastic. hips opened up, bike dove more, and the natural weight on the handlebar was nice in corners. The only real test i've done so far was a windy 7.5 mile descent, and i tied my best time (33 mph average). The nice thing is I did this into a head wind, and set my PR initially with a tail wind. Cornering was much better this time.

There is one more test coming up....2400 ft in like 5 miles with tons of turns. we'll see.

i do agree with the poster who said, "Keep your butt on the saddle". that was good advice to me.

keep the posts coming, they have been really helpful.

grolby

You are both, frankly, wrong about this and I'm not sure what else to say. The simplistic idea that braking and cornering have a basic additive effect on the "amount" of total traction left over is just not correct. The idea that "if you can still brake, you could have leaned more and turned faster is wrong, period. But we'll leave that be, since proving it requires hard math that I don't understand (if you want to know, Jobst Brandt demonstrated it years ago). But it's wrong for another reason, which is that the limits of traction are NOT the major issue in descending, most of the time. The issue is not running off the road! There's simply a lower limit to the radius of a turn that you can manage at a given speed on a bike, and usually you're going to come up against that before you come up against traction. The danger is running too wide. The ONLY solution to this is trail braking.

There's a simpler way to understand this: if you are taking a downhill corner, gravity will accelerate you through the entire turn. If you completely stop braking before turning in, your entry speed will need to be very low to get through the corner safely, otherwise you will be going too fast at the apex and either run wide or wash out (the former, most likely). Staying gently on the brakes through the turn-in allows you to enter the turn still going a bit too fast and scrub speed till the apex to get it just right. This does not reduce the turning ability of the bike in any way because the braking is started well before turn-in and isn't extremely hard. Most riders brake during turn-in instinctively. This is a good habit, and it's frustrating to see know-it-alls who took a motorcycle instruction course try to break people of it. We're not talking about slamming on the brakes mid-turn, here. We're talking about a controlled release of brake force through turn-in all the way to corner apex. It's not dangerous or bad technique, it's essential to get the most out of your bike on a descent.

Bike Gremlin

That is correct. The comments you quoted were on braking AT the apex. That is a no-no. Always. Before - yes, after (trailbraking on steep descents) - yees, but not at the apex.

It is also a fact that when leaned harder, at the same speed, turning radius is smaller. We can agree on that, can't we?

It is also logical that if tyres, while leaned, also try to stop the bike, it will put even more force on the pavement-tyre contact. If it is too much, tyre will slip.

For novice riders, it is the best thing to brake too much before a turn and start it slow, so they can easily make it without any braking. Everything else will come gradually and their slow will be faster and faster.

grolby

No, they weren't. I never suggested that going from no braking to hard braking while in the middle of a turn was a good idea. What I have said, repeatedly, is that it isn't good technique to come off the brakes completely before turning in.

I'm not even sure what you mean by this. At any given combination of turning radius and speed, there is a lean angle that is dictated by the laws of physics. You can't just lean more and therefore turn faster. You can only turn faster and therefore lean more. And at some point, you just can't get a smaller turning radius.

Logical? Maybe. Correct? Not really You're making this out to be a simple additive effect, and that's not how it works. Even if you're actually cornering at the limits of traction (pretty much impossible to do, since you can't save a slide from loss of traction on a bike tire, you're just going down) and one more degree of lean would be enough to cause the tire to slip, there's still plenty of room for braking. The best example I can give here is not from solo descending but cornering in a group during a criterium. If the rider in front of me is going a little bit slower through a fast corner than I am, it's no problem to use a bit of brake to scrub some speed and avoid riding into their rear wheel. It's annoying, because it means accelerating more out of the corner, but it's not dangerous at all. Again, this is relatively trivially demonstrated by math: https://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html. Scroll down to "Braking at maximum lean." Braking at 1/10 g is completely trivial even at maximum lean, and what's more, it increases the amount of braking that can be done as lean angle decreases as the bike slows down! The "traction circle" idea taught to novice motorcyclists is an oversimplification of traction dynamics that doesn't do bicyclists much good.

I agree insofar as recommending that novices start out by entering corners much slower than necessary to get around them. But I strongly disagree that they should let off the brakes before turn-in and complete the turn without additional braking. That's just foolish and counterproductive. It is breaking riders of a good habit for no particular reason, especially as it's a habit that will serve them well as they become more skilled.

Bike Gremlin

You can, oh great physicist. Lean more, at a given speed, make smaller radius circle (turn).

Sheldonbrown article is very good.

grolby

Well, this is getting into very pedantic territory, but what I'm trying to point out is that the amount of lean is a product of speed and turning radius, NOT an input. Meaning, you make the turn, and your lean angle is whatever is dictated by the laws of physics at that point. But that's a chicken-and-egg kind of argument that won't get us anywhere and which comes first is probably just a matter of perspective anyway.

But more to the point, there's a point at which leaning the bike more won't give you a tighter turn, even if traction would allow for it, probably at about 45 degrees of lean. There might be traction to spare, but the geometry of the tires means there's a minimum turning radius that can be achieved, and more leaning isn't going to help. What I'm saying is that having enough traction to brake doesn't mean that you could just lean more and turn tighter at the same speed. Running out of road is every bit as big of a problem as running out of traction, and I would argue that the former is actually a more likely cause of a crash under good, dry road conditions. Typically, you see riders slide out when it's wet, or when there's gravel or sand on the road. When it's dry and clean, you usually see them run off the road and hit something, or take a tumble. The big point here is that, much of the time, it's the geometrical limits of bicycle cornering that we are pushing, not the physical limits of traction. As a general rule, switchbacks and other tight corners are where the former comes into play, fast sweepers the latter.

JTGraphics

People who run off the road are making the mistake of not taking the correct line and run off the road at exit of the apex this comes from not knowing the turn and its aspects including camber of the road + - flat it's radius (and if it’s a tight switch back even more important) has everything to do with the amount of speed you can take it at or you could very well be on the ground kissing mother earth..

To go fast you must pick the correct line in and out and making that line as straight as you can and in a smooth manner for this you need to know the turn well.