ilovecycling

So if I'm reading this correctly, Campy is saying, "Hey, we've already pushed a pin through this marked/calibrated link during the manufacturing process so you can only put a pin in one more time." This explains why all the other pins are fair game- because they haven't had an already peened pin pushed through them before. Essentially, Campy is telling us that a pin can only be pushed out and replaced once. The problem is they already did it once during the manufacturing process. Okay, cool. I get it now.

Where did you get this information on how the chains are manufactured? I ask because I'm still wondering what makes it a "calibrated" hole? Why would they say not to remove or modify that calibrated link if it is simply a regular link with a pin already pushed out? If that was the case, you could just remove that link and push out another pin on the same side of the chain to give yourself another "calibrated" link. See what I mean? Something doesn't add up here.

ilovecycling

The 11-speed Missing Link works on both Campy or KMC chains. Of course, if you use it on a Campy chain you have to ignore the Campy instructions that say to "never remove or modify the marked/calibrated link in any way." You simply remove the calibrated outer plate pair and connect both remaining inner links with the KMC Missing Link. As I've already stated, I don't feel comfortable running the KMC missing link on a Campy chain because you simply don't know if KMC is making them precisely enough for the Campy chain tolerances. At least if you go with a KMC 11-speed chain + Missing Link you know the same company made both, which means there's a better chance that the chain and missing link are within the same range of acceptable tolerances.

Snydermann

Are we still talking about a bicycle chain here or is this chain also used on the space station somewhere?

$70.00 chain, $12.00 rivet, $150.00 special tool, 30 page instruction manual. Can you user regular lubricant on that chain or is that proprietary as well and sold only by the milligram? Are you guys feeding your family using this chain or is this just for fun?

Campag4life

Makes sense....thanks.

DaveSSS 

Your response tells me that you have little knowledge of maufacturing or machine work. I started working in machining and manufacturing in 1971. I got my information from watching videos of the Campy factory.

The pin that Campy pushes out is not peened, so it does not damage the holes in the outer plate. The holes in that pair of outer plates are not "calibrated", they just never had a peened pin pushed out of them. When you break a chain and push a peened pin through the hole, that's when the damage may occur. When you break your chain apart, you are NOT doing the same thing the Campy does in the factory. The pins are not peened when the chains are separated into shorter lengths, at the factory.

All brands of chains are made to very exacting standards. They have to be, or they would not work with any cog having a 1/2" pitch. I've logged many thousand of miles on Campy chains, joined with both KMC and wipperman connex master links. As long as the outer width is not too wide and the clearance between the inner and outer plates doesn't exceed the tolerance that I mentioned, there should be no problem. I had no problems, even with KMC 10 speed links on the 11 speed chain.

ilovecycling

And your response tells me that you are yet another internet dickhead that assumes too much about what people do or don't know. You are old. Great. Would you like a trophy?

Tell me this. How does my lack of knowledge on how Campy chains are specifically manufactured tell you anything about what I do or do not know about machining and manufacturing in general? I was simply trying to wrap my head around what you were telling me. *edit* I missed the part where you said the chains are cut to length "before the pins are peened." Fair enough.

Still though, this makes what you said before even more confusing now. So if the calibrated link's holes are the same as all the others and the calibrated link has never had a peened rivet through it, why does Campagnolo say you can reopen and close another link after pushing a peened rivet through it? Furthermore, if the pin is the same size as all the others, what difference does it make if you push out the special rivet or any of the others? If a peened rivet going through the holes is what could potentially damage them, then why does it matter which one it is? This is what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe Rob's response makes more sense afterall.

DaveSSS 

That was my main point, you missed the fact that the factory pushes out a pin before peening. If they didn't it would be just as damaged as any pin removed after some use of the chain.

With all the years of experience that I have in metal working, I'm truly skeptical that pushing the joining pin out, at least from right to left (opposite the way it was put in) is really any worse than pushing a peened pin out. I'm also surprised that Campy even suggests installing a new joining pin into a link that's been separated after peening. They absolutely don't advise that with their 10 speed chain, unlike Shimano whose 10 speed joining pin works the same way. Both of those pins merely have a short length with an increased diameter to create an interference fit (and a much weaker connection).

I'd much rather rely on a master link than several joining pins.

ilovecycling

Well, whether or not pushing the joining pin out is worse than pushing out any of the other peened pins is what I'm trying to determine. Rob's explanation makes perfect sense, but it was based on the premise that if you push out a peened pin from any of the other links it will open the diameter ever so slightly to the same diameter that the calibrated hole has. Now you are saying that Rob is wrong and there is no difference in size.

So which is it? I'd like to see where in this manufacturing video (or anywhere else) it says that all the pins and holes are exactly the same diameter except the "calibrated" link that hasn't had a peened pin pushed through it. Not trying to start anything, but right now Rob's explanation just makes more sense and I'm genuinely interested in learning about the construction of these chains.

DaveSSS 

I've never tried the KMC chain, but I'm sure it's fine. I usually buy Campy chains from some place like Ribble, for $35, and get six at a time. I use chains in groups of three, with the idea of getting at least 12,000 miles from three chains and one cassette. I install the Campy pin when the chain is new, then replace it with a master link when I first decide to remove the chain for cleaning. I ride on some gritty roads and believe in an occasional off-the-bike chain cleaning.

The KMC link should work fine with a Campy chain, although it's probably has a little more side clearance. KMC chains tend to have more side clearance on all of the links, based on those that I've checked with feeler gages.

I've done wear tests with 10 speed chains and know that Campy chains wear differently than the KMC DX10SC or the Shimano 7800 that I compared. Campy chains show very little elongation even after 6,000 miles, while the others tend to elongate quickly. Using a precision rule to measure a Campy chain will not tell you how worn it is, but calipers between the rollers will. So will most of those flawed chain checking tools, but their "elongation" numbers are bogus.

Someone posted a recent chain wear test from Tour magazine that at least suggests that Shimano may have improved the pin material on the 7900 chain, to improve life. I'm always skeptical of those tests. If Wipperman does the same thing, their chains out-perform all the others. Someone else does the same sort of test and comes up with different results. Unfortunately, the report from Tour magazine really didn't explain how they measured chain wear. There's more to it than just elongation and ways to measure elongation that are just wrong.

ilovecycling

DaveSSS- Do you have any pics or examples of how to measure between the rollers on Campy 11-speed chains? Since they don't really elongate, is this the only *reliable* way to check for a worn 11-speed chain?

DaveSSS 

I've got to revise my statement about the Campy chain manufacturing. I watched the video again and they show the chain being cut to length as a final step, after the chain pins are peened. That makes more sense from a high volume manufacturing standpoint -less handling of short chain lengths. If that's the case, then the only way that the outer plates that are on the end of a new chain could be different than the others would be a separate maufacturing operation to install a pair of "virgin" plates to the otherwise finished chain. I know that I've looked at those plates closely and the holes certainly look pristine. It would make no sense to put a zip tie through the holes and attach a warning label to some plates that are no different than the rest.

Campag4life

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

When you install the Campy 11s chain initially, do you use the Campy peening tool, the one from Park or perhaps suggestion another?
Thanks again.

Psimet2001 

If you dig deep you will find many threads were Dave and I in particular have gone around about chain wear.

DaveSSS 

All I do is use ordinary dial or digital calipers, that all have internal measuring tips. Place the tips deep enough to reach the center of the roller and measure the space between the rollers. When new, it will be in the .200-.205 (Shimano and KMC will be more like .210-.215). I consider a chain to be half worn when that space increases by .020 and really shot at .040. If you don't use chains in groups of three and alternate each one at the .020 wear point, then it must be tossed before reaching .040. If you don't, then you may get chain skip when a second new chain is put on the cassette.

I've also made a simple plug gage by grinding a 6mm hex wrench to about .070 inch thick. If it drops between the rollers, the chain is shot.

DaveSSS 

I use the Campy tool, but only because I got into 11 speed when it first came out and there was no other option. I got the tool relatively cheap (about $140). Prices from the UK, in late '08 through most of '09 made Campy 11 less expensive than 10 speed had been for several years prior. Prices are still good at present, but Record 11 groups cost $2-300 more than they used to. Chorus is still the bargain.

Campag4life

Since this thread is a wealth of discovery for Campy chains, Dave could you provide some general steps of what you do to attach a Campy chain initially?
Starting with:
A. the chain is provided with two plates with open holes on the end.
B. Use your sizing method...I like your comments about using Big-big + 1".
C. Push out pin on the number of links you want to remove?
D. Join the chain...please elaborate as one link is pristine and perhaps purposefully sized as you put it...and the other had a peened pin pushed through it obviously changing its sizing...unless you propose to push the pin in a given direction not driving the peened end through the eyelet of the chain plates + roller.

Campag4life

What's good though Rob is the discussion. Its always OK to disagree. What is funny is that just about everybody in this thread has a BSME.

DaveSSS 

Only because roller wear does not create a change in the chain pitch. It's relevant, but 5-10 times greater than the pin/bushing wear that causes elongation. You can't mix the two and consider them as equals. A worn pin/bushing has .0025 inch of wear and a pair of rollers, .025-.040.

Measuring only the elongation (properly with a ruler) works fine for chains that elongate quickly. The chain will have .5% elongation around the same time that the rollers are shot. Not so with all chain brands and models.

DaveSSS 

Campag4life:

The other end of the chain, opposite the virgin outer plates, is not affected by removing a pin, since what remains is a pair of inner plates that are a loose fit with the pin. No damage is done to them. You can follow Campy's instructions to the letter.

I really prefer to make a chain as long as possible with the little/little method. If you do that, then you can use any Campy 11 cassette without changing the chain length. Campy essentially suggests the little/little method, but gives a dimension to measure rather than just making the chain as long as possible, but not not hanging loose.

Campag4life

My bad...I should have figured that out. Its the outer plates that are affected by pushing a peened head rivet though..not the narrower chain ends as you correctly state.

Regarding chain sizing...
I always size to Big-big and then check Small-small. Sometimes I end up shortening the chain by a link after doing the Small-small check if I believe there is a better compromise between Big-big and Small-small. I never change cassettes so don't need to err on one side or the other. I have learned that chain length matters in relative shifting performance as you suggested by your earlier comments. Btw...my new Specialized with Campy 10s bike shifts beautifully. This is after weathering the '09 Campy 10s shifting debacle and moving on 2010 shifters and later derailleurs.
Thanks again.

RT

Everyone in this forum has a BS in something

Despite not even owning an 11 speed, nor having any plans to, this is a good thread to read. Makes me feel less intelligent, but I are learning stuffs.

ilovecycling

Does this mean you are on board with Rob's explanation now? I'm thinking he is correct because otherwise Campagnolo's directions would make no sense whatsoever.

To recap:

1. All link holes and pins start life the same size when on the assembly line.
1. The "calibrated" link has actually had a peened pin pushed through at the final stage of the manufacturing process when they cut the chains to length, contributing to its slightly larger diameter pin holes. Whether they go beyond this and actually machine the holes further is unknown, but they are larger.
2. The joining rivet pin is sized to perfectly fit in this "calibrated" hole.
3. Every other link in the chain is fair game for reopening and closing the chain because they haven't had the peened pin pushed through yet. Doing so just once makes the holes the same size as the "calibrated" holes, requiring the joining rivet pin to be used to close the chain again.
4. No link, calibrated master or not, can have the special joining rivet removed after being installed because this will open the holes to size "3," as Rob called it.

Can we all agree with this?

Campag4life

I will say I agree with it based upon my interpretation of this thread including Rob and Dave's comments. It makes the most sense. My take..I also have a pretty extensive manufacturing background is...to conserve cost there is no 'special' operation to create the 'calibrated' link. The calibrated link hole sizing is a function of pushing a peened rivet through it when sizing the chain on the assembly line. This would comport with all future chain changes that Campy accepts the liability for. When a peened rivet it pushed out this creates a 'calibrated' hole size for which the oversized rivet works effectively with when rejoining the chain. Don't remove a rivet that has been replaced.
In summary, what Rob wrote.

ilovecycling

Cool. I always feel better when I fully understand why I'm doing something rather than just doing it because the directions say to. I wasn't about to give up on this thread without some sort of consensus on what can and can't be done with these 11-speed chains. Glad I got the answers I was looking for though.

Afterthought: I could always remove the damaged master link and put it on eBay. The chain is still perfectly good to use with a KMC Missing Link. I just don't want to go that route myself. With only a few hundred miles on it, I'm sure I can still squeeze $30 or more out of it.

Campag4life

If I have learned anything living the world of product development and R&D is...the road to the truth is rocky. Many don't have the stomach for it. There won't be perfect agreement. Too many options. We can try to understand the different options however as you have done by posting this thread and I say thanks for that and to the guys that helped with your answer.
PS: Many know that Rob knows his stuff and I look upon Dave as kind of the forum's Campy expert. I went to him when I struggled with my early 10s Campy shifting issues. When Campy screwed the pooch with their shifters in '09 there was a lot of outcry and he wrote extensively about cause and effect. Campy made engineering changes and their shifters are now better than ever but they made a lot of changes from the original design. The problem with even good companies putting product out there before it is ready to beat the competition is they end up doing beta testing on their customers. Some customers forgive this and others don't forget.