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Why not lighter?

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Why not lighter?

Old 06-05-12, 03:31 PM
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I posted the price I paid for my light S-works. Thats brand new, straight from a dealer. I'm not sure what you're still arguing about. MSRP and what people pay are two totally different things. You're yapping about $11,000 MSRPs, and yet I don't know anybody that has ever paid close to that much for a bicycle.

So there's you're answer. There's a huge margin in high end bikes, and almost nobody pays that.
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Old 06-05-12, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
All good points, except that I don't want to go into business making and selling bikes. I am just wondering why the people who do won't give us the full benefit of the technologies that are available for the high prices they charge. I am just saying if I can do it with indiviually purchased components ( all of which include the costs you listed by the way), think what they could do with their resources and buying power.

Robert
Right, but what's your time worth? Not just the time to build the thing and source the parts, but the [Malcolm Gladwell] 10,000 hours it took you to get an eye for a good deal. If people want a turnkey solution (yours is definitely NOT a turnkey solution), many manufacturers will sell it to them. For a price.
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Old 06-05-12, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AMFJ
Not everyone can ride a medium frame--so some frames are just heavier.
Not everyone cares to ride such lightweight wheels---they prefer more durable--so heavier
Not everyone wants a carbon bar and stem--they prefer not to risk what goes with that--so heavier
Not everyone wants light weight tubes--because they prefer better puncture resistence--so heavier

Etc. etc. etc.

You built your bikes with light first. Others built their bikes for what they want. If all things are equal you go lighter. If things are not equal--you pick out which is important to you and you go that route.


Manufacturers don't do what you did because as soon as the 300lb person starts breaking spokes, getting flats, has a handlebar break after a crash, etc. etc., they get drug through the mud for having an "unreliable" bike.
Good answer, thanks. I appreciate the time you took to analyze the question. Please let me rebut a little. No not everyone can ride a medium frame, but unlike in the past with women reviewers, many bike reviews are done on that size and the weights quoted relate to that or to only one size up. I already stipulated what weight is sacrificed in going to heavier wheels. It is more than offset by the weights of the new generation of frames. If Cannondale and Willier didn't care some about weight, they wouldn't be making sub 800 g frames. My stem is aluminum, not carbon. Carbon bars are surely used on many of the top of the line big company bikes. You got me on the tubes. They are a bit of a stretch (pun intended). Lightest butyl tubes you can buy. To answer my own question, I think that there are attractive, very light weight choices in every component type. I suspect the manufacturers are just not "going all the way". One guy is using light pedals but heavy bar and stem, another light post but heavy pedals, etc. So the light components are being used, otherwise sub-1500 g bikes wouldn't be possible. If they are all being used somewhere, why not use them all in one place? That is a rhetorical question. Doesn't need an answer. Thanks.

Robert
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Old 06-05-12, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I truly don't understand. I am showing you a bike formula that combines all the desired attributes, each in their proper proportion. The frame is known to be a quality ride. The group is known to be among the best. And on and on. The only possible weak spot is the ultra-light wheels, and I have mentioned what it would cost in weight to beef them up. The trade-offs you embrace so fervently are imaginary today. Ain't technology wonderful. Why would you not want it all? Reminds me of a song by Adele!

I guess this isn't the time to mention that my Ritchey Break Away steel only weighs 16.3 lb. No, I didn't think so.

Robert
Your bikes are the best bikes ever specified. They are optimized for all riders and all preferences and still deliver lowest weights. We collectively bow to your wisdom and thank you for sharing your build specifications and your disdain.
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Old 06-05-12, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by IthaDan
Right, but what's your time worth? Not just the time to build the thing and source the parts, but the [Malcolm Gladwell] 10,000 hours it took you to get an eye for a good deal. If people want a turnkey solution (yours is definitely NOT a turnkey solution), many manufacturers will sell it to them. For a price.
Good point. Thanks.

Robert
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Old 06-05-12, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by svtmike
Your bikes are the best bikes ever specified. They are optimized for all riders and all preferences and still deliver lowest weights. We collectively bow to your wisdom and thank you for sharing your build specifications and your disdain.
Hey, bud, I am not the one who started slinging the disdain around. But let me say in the spirit of cycling cameraderie, I envy you. You never have to wonder whether you could be riding a better bike and paying less for it. You are really lucky to prefer high priced mediocity. Aaah! If only I could be so small minded. Enjoy.
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Old 06-05-12, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jmX
I posted the price I paid for my light S-works. Thats brand new, straight from a dealer. I'm not sure what you're still arguing about. MSRP and what people pay are two totally different things. You're yapping about $11,000 MSRPs, and yet I don't know anybody that has ever paid close to that much for a bicycle.

So there's you're answer. There's a huge margin in high end bikes, and almost nobody pays that.
Sure I agree with that.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Hey, bud, I am not the one who started slinging the disdain around.
I wonder who wrote this stuff?

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I am replying to the last of the inane responses to my posting because that is the most convenient thing to do, but I think my comments will be relevant to them all. With few exceptions you are the smuggest, most pompous, arrogant cycling poseurs I have ever encountered. I have been building up bicycles and wheels since most of you guys were still browning your diapers (assuming that doesn't continue to the present, the betting line for which is perhaps -500).

...

Get a life. Or better yet, get a REAL bike. The good news is that you COULD afford it. If you take your head out of you butt, off course.
That's in response mostly to a bunch of people asking whether you added up the weights manufacturers of different parts weigh, or if you put your bike on a scale. It's a legitimate question when somebody brags about the unusually diminutive weight of their bike.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:21 PM
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Cuz you've made significant concessions to achieve that weight, that most people are not willing to make.

Also, red equipped carbon bikes do not cost $3500 new, so we're not really comparing apples to apples.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I wonder who wrote this stuff?



That's in response mostly to a bunch of people asking whether you added up the weights manufacturers of different parts weigh, or if you put your bike on a scale. It's a legitimate question when somebody brags about the unusually diminutive weight of their bike.
You make a thoughtful point. In going back to look, I see that you are largely but not entirely correct. Some of the replies were indeed helpful and well intentioned. The particular post that I quoted was patently offensive. Why is that a part of participating in this forum? And the comment about trolling. Why do so many of the forum participants fixate on that? How are they being harmed? Can't a post be taken at face value rather than it be torn apart without even considering the content? And it is likely my background showing through, but after 40 years in chemical research, it would never occur to me to ask someone quoting a weight whether he had weighed the object or were just guessing. Are you kidding me? People used to duel over insults like that. Furthermore it never occurred to me that I was bragging, just setting out some facts I thought would be helpful to others. Oh well!

Robert
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Old 06-05-12, 04:26 PM
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I'm still sporting cottered steel cranks. I'm trying for the ultimate bike, sub 30lbs. Thats with some rad Super Champion Record du Monde rims 315gr. I think I'm down to 28lbs with my spare under the Wrights W5N leather saddle. Oh yeah, hand made in France some 40 years ago. Thinking of drilling my MAFAC brake levers to shave a few grams. Just talking about it makes me want to go for a ride. Washed my wool shorts this morning and put them out in the sun to dry. Hope the chamios isnt too crispy.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Commodus
Cuz you've made significant concessions to achieve that weight, that most people are not willing to make.

Also, red equipped carbon bikes do not cost $3500 new, so we're not really comparing apples to apples.
Your comment about concessions is very interesting to me. That is exactly why I posted in the first place. Please tell me what you mean. When I point out the choices I made and suggest they are not concessions, I get thrashed on the grounds of my style of setting out the information. But the underlying quality issues is the discussion I was hoping to have. Please say more. And as for the price difference, yes it is not apples to apples, but isn't that the point? Cheaper bike, lighter weight.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Hey, bud, I am not the one who started slinging the disdain around. But let me say in the spirit of cycling cameraderie, I envy you. You never have to wonder whether you could be riding a better bike and paying less for it. You are really lucky to prefer high priced mediocity. Aaah! If only I could be so small minded. Enjoy.
You don't even know what I ride, "bud". Enjoy your ****ty brakes.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by big chainring
I'm still sporting cottered steel cranks. I'm trying for the ultimate bike, sub 30lbs. Thats with some rad Super Champion Record du Monde rims 315gr. I think I'm down to 28lbs with my spare under the Wrights W5N leather saddle. Oh yeah, hand made in France some 40 years ago. Thinking of drilling my MAFAC brake levers to shave a few grams. Just talking about it makes me want to go for a ride. Washed my wool shorts this morning and put them out in the sun to dry. Hope the chamios isnt too crispy.
I hope you remember to wear your Skid Lid. Yeah, I was there too. Fun then. Fun now.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
You make a thoughtful point. In going back to look, I see that you are largely but not entirely correct. Some of the replies were indeed helpful and well intentioned. The particular post that I quoted was patently offensive. Why is that a part of participating in this forum? And the comment about trolling. Why do so many of the forum participants fixate on that? How are they being harmed? Can't a post be taken at face value rather than it be torn apart without even considering the content? And it is likely my background showing through, but after 40 years in chemical research, it would never occur to me to ask someone quoting a weight whether he had weighed the object or were just guessing. Are you kidding me? People used to duel over insults like that. Furthermore it never occurred to me that I was bragging, just setting out some facts I thought would be helpful to others. Oh well!

Robert
Keep in mind that this forum (probably all of them) is a collection of people who are very dedicated to cycling, plus people who enjoy trolling each other, plus people who are sitting at work, bored out of their minds, wishing their situation was different, and other types, too.

Lots of people come here, set up a new account (eg they've never been seen before), and start a thread on some inane topic ... that sort of ruins it for people we don't already know, who want to talk about something off the beaten track. We had a guy who didn't know how to remove his "dork disc" and decided burning it should work. There was another guy who got a set of aerobars, saw fit to attach them using zip ties, and promptly crashed. This other guy, with impulsivity and anger issues, chased a driver down and wound up in handcuffs outside a convenience store, being hugged by a security guard. None of this has much bearing on you, except that you're new here, and a lot of people are just slightly suspicious because of that.

This will all blow over, probably by tomorrow. And then people will be happy to talk about what you came here for in the first place.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:38 PM
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OP with his low post count and sandy skivvies seems like a sock of somebody... but I can't quite place the writing and debate style.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Keep in mind that this forum (probably all of them) is a collection of people who are very dedicated to cycling, plus people who enjoy trolling each other, plus people who are sitting at work, bored out of their minds, wishing their situation was different, and other types, too.

Lots of people come here, set up a new account (eg they've never been seen before), and start a thread on some inane topic ... that sort of ruins it for people we don't already know, who want to talk about something off the beaten track. We had a guy who didn't know how to remove his "dork disc" and decided burning it should work. There was another guy who got a set of aerobars, saw fit to attach them using zip ties, and promptly crashed. This other guy, with impulsivity and anger issues, chased a driver down and wound up in handcuffs outside a convenience store, being hugged by a security guard. None of this has much bearing on you, except that you're new here, and a lot of people are just slightly suspicious because of that.

This will all blow over, probably by tomorrow. And then people will be happy to talk about what you came here for in the first place.
Yes, I think you are right about cycling forums. But not about all forums. Photography forums are night and day different. The greatest deference is given to the newest members to bring them along. They ask the oldest questions over and over and never get chastised, only led to the already recorded answers. I guess there is no machismo attached to shooting pictures of butterflies. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Robert
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Old 06-05-12, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
So why are the premium manufacturers charging $11,000 and wasting 1.5 lb.
I'm not entirely certain which bikes you're discussing.

For example, the Jamis Xenith SL is $9500, and quoted as 13.75 lbs; the Xenith Elite with SRAM Red is quoted as 15.25 lbs with an MSRP of $5000. The Cannondale Evo Ultimate is 10.89 lbs with an MSRP of $12,000; the Evo 2 Red is around 13.6 pounds and MSRP $5500.

Also keep in mind that some of the "aero road bikes" are phenomenally expensive, but are designed to be aero rather than light. They're the "latest thing," and as such are getting more press lately.

So, I'm pretty sure most of the ~15 pound bikes are running around $5000, whereas the 13 pounders are in the $10k+ range.


Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I have two bikes, one carbon and one titanium, both weighing in at 14.0 lb. Both were built up by me with a combination of used and new, LBS and ebay parts for about $3200 - $3500 each.
First, you're buying parts that are used our outside normal sales channels. Obviously, that's going to dramatically lower the costs.

Second, and as mentioned, you haven't calculated all the labor, shipping and inventory costs that you're covering. E.g. that Cdale Evo requires labor at the factory, has to be stored until someone orders it, shipped to the LBS, maybe sits at the LBS, and is worked on at the LBS.

Third, you don't have to pay for liability. If you made a minor mistake that results in your eating pavement, you aren't going to sue yourself.

Fourth, you're not selling these bikes -- you're using them. You don't have marketing costs, you don't have to pay taxes on your sales, you don't need to make a profit, you don't have warranty costs, you don't have store or warehouse overhead, you don't have to pay accountants, you don't have to release quarterly sales figures, you aren't giving dozens of top-of-the-line bikes to pro teams. How long would Cannondale stay in business, if they sold their über-bikes at cost?

Or, to put all this another way: Materials are a small part of the cost of that bike sitting on the LBS sales floor. Everyone at every step of the way has an array of transportation, legal, warranty, labor, tax, marketing, PR, inventory and business overhead costs -- and runs the risk of getting stuck with unsold goods.

As Joe Cyclist building a bike in your garage out of Fleabay parts, none of this is part of your experience. And it's pretty much why a bike that costs you $3,500 to build out of leftovers will cost $10,000 at the LBS.
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Old 06-05-12, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by svtmike
You don't even know what I ride, "bud". Enjoy your ****ty brakes.
Aw, is baby upset? What's the matter, you can give it but can't take it? After the way you came in here with your offensive sarcasm, why would I even care what you ride? And by the way, I do enjoy my brakes. They work great. If you have any you want to get rid of, just let me know. I will be happy to take them off your hands. But that's not possible. If you had any, you would know how good they are.
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Old 06-05-12, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
I'm not entirely certain which bikes you're discussing.

For example, the Jamis Xenith SL is $9500, and quoted as 13.75 lbs; the Xenith Elite with SRAM Red is quoted as 15.25 lbs with an MSRP of $5000. The Cannondale Evo Ultimate is 10.89 lbs with an MSRP of $12,000; the Evo 2 Red is around 13.6 pounds and MSRP $5500.

Also keep in mind that some of the "aero road bikes" are phenomenally expensive, but are designed to be aero rather than light. They're the "latest thing," and as such are getting more press lately.

So, I'm pretty sure most of the ~15 pound bikes are running around $5000, whereas the 13 pounders are in the $10k+ range.
It's also important to keep in mind almost all the manufacturer claimed weights are withour pedals. When you add them, that's another 1/2 lb.
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Old 06-05-12, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven
It's also important to keep in mind almost all the manufacturer claimed weights are withour pedals. When you add them, that's another 1/2 lb.
Very good point. I forgot about that. And in honesty, that is how I weighed my bikes also. No intent to mislead, I just forgot. Thanks for reminding me.
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Old 06-05-12, 06:18 PM
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Hey sorry to the OP since I uttered the "T" word, but you gotta admit it...asking about light weight, assuming that lighter is better (which is a clear crock), low post count, quoting that rag "Bicycling" all seem pretty provocative...

But I will go ahead and offer my apologies.

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Old 06-05-12, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas
assuming that lighter is better (which is a clear crock)

Doug
Hah! Who's the "T" word now?
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Old 06-05-12, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas
Lighter is not always better.

My bike is amazingly good and weighs approx 17 pounds.

p.s. Bicycling Magazine? That's an effing joke. You lose a lot of cred in here by referring to that rag. You sure you are not trolling??
Rarely is lighter not better. Unless stiffness, or strength are compromised. Trust me on this. My 12.99lbs bike kicks the crap out of my 15.54lbs bike, and makes both of them kick the crap out of my other heavier bikes.

Your 17lbs. bike may be good, but if it was lighter it would be better. It may be "Amazingly good" now, but it could be "Unbelievably good" if it was 4 or 5lbs less.

I agree with your comments about "Bicyling" magazine. They are published by Rodale Publishing, which is a joke of a company.

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Old 06-05-12, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
I'm not entirely certain which bikes you're discussing.

For example, the Jamis Xenith SL is $9500, and quoted as 13.75 lbs; the Xenith Elite with SRAM Red is quoted as 15.25 lbs with an MSRP of $5000. The Cannondale Evo Ultimate is 10.89 lbs with an MSRP of $12,000; the Evo 2 Red is around 13.6 pounds and MSRP $5500.

Also keep in mind that some of the "aero road bikes" are phenomenally expensive, but are designed to be aero rather than light. They're the "latest thing," and as such are getting more press lately.

So, I'm pretty sure most of the ~15 pound bikes are running around $5000, whereas the 13 pounders are in the $10k+ range.



First, you're buying parts that are used our outside normal sales channels. Obviously, that's going to dramatically lower the costs.

Second, and as mentioned, you haven't calculated all the labor, shipping and inventory costs that you're covering. E.g. that Cdale Evo requires labor at the factory, has to be stored until someone orders it, shipped to the LBS, maybe sits at the LBS, and is worked on at the LBS.

Third, you don't have to pay for liability. If you made a minor mistake that results in your eating pavement, you aren't going to sue yourself.

Fourth, you're not selling these bikes -- you're using them. You don't have marketing costs, you don't have to pay taxes on your sales, you don't need to make a profit, you don't have warranty costs, you don't have store or warehouse overhead, you don't have to pay accountants, you don't have to release quarterly sales figures, you aren't giving dozens of top-of-the-line bikes to pro teams. How long would Cannondale stay in business, if they sold their über-bikes at cost?

Or, to put all this another way: Materials are a small part of the cost of that bike sitting on the LBS sales floor. Everyone at every step of the way has an array of transportation, legal, warranty, labor, tax, marketing, PR, inventory and business overhead costs -- and runs the risk of getting stuck with unsold goods.

As Joe Cyclist building a bike in your garage out of Fleabay parts, none of this is part of your experience. And it's pretty much why a bike that costs you $3,500 to build out of leftovers will cost $10,000 at the LBS.
I was thinking of the Trek Madone at $11,686 and 14.9 lb, the Giant TCR Advanced SL1 at $6,900 and 14.8 lb, and the Conago M10 at $9,500 and 15.49 lb (wow!). One thing you seem to overlook is that I paid for all those manufacturers costs in every part that I bought. And when has it been possible to build something from spare parts as cheaply as buy it all together? Usually bikes are supposed to be a bargain over the sum of the prices of the individual components. Enough about the costs, that really wasn't my emphasis anyway.

But to shift gears a little, why all the snarky comments about my methodology like "Fleabay" and "leftovers"? Isn't ebay a tremendous boon to cyclists? Not to replace LBSs, but to compelement them? I for one couldn't afford my hobbies without ebay.
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