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Zipp Firecrest Clinchers - 303 or 404?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Zipp Firecrest Clinchers - 303 or 404?

Old 06-06-12, 03:14 PM
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I'd do the combo.

Rear wheel adds to stability, so you'd be fine then. It's a best of both worlds scenario.
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Old 06-06-12, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by valygrl
I'm surprised to hear the 303 is stiffer.
I too was a little surprised to hear that. They have a lengthy article with charts and graphs discussing how they choose the spoke counts for wheels and their goal is to never make a new wheel less stiff than the one before it. You have a few factors affecting stiffness such as the rim itself, bracing angle (which will vary with rim depth), and spoke count. Turns out, all things considered, Zipp says their 24spoke 303 is 8% stiffer than their 20spoke 404.
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Old 06-06-12, 07:43 PM
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Thanks for this thread. I'm kind of in the same boat considering 303s, 404s and shimano C-35s.
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Old 06-06-12, 08:36 PM
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If you can demo the wheels, do it. I find that my Reynolds and FarSports (chinese) 45mm and 50mm carbon clinchers get blown around quite a bit more than XR270s. And the braking is not as good. You don't have as many steep technical descents as I do here but there is Flagstaff....
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Old 06-06-12, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ericm979
If you can demo the wheels, do it.
This makes sense. I'd recommend going to BCS and renting the 303s. If that doesn't work, I'd keep looking. I'm not convinced at 110lbs, the 303s are a good everyday wheel for you. 45mm is still a lot of wheel.
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Old 06-06-12, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I'd go with the 404's. Thy're more aero than the 303's and the weight difference is only 100 grams or so.
This was my reasoning. Plus, if I was going to shell out the cash for "Aero" rims, I didn't want to be second guessing the 303's aero benefits. 404's seemed like the best compromise. Even at 4-5% grades aero still trumps weight. I was trying to balance a TT'ing with riding mountains tho.
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Old 06-06-12, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ericm979
If you can demo the wheels, do it. I find that my Reynolds and FarSports (chinese) 45mm and 50mm carbon clinchers get blown around quite a bit more than XR270s. And the braking is not as good. You don't have as many steep technical descents as I do here but there is Flagstaff....
Yeah, I am running out of time to decide, but I might be able to manage that on Saturday. Thanks.

Oh yeah, and they can always be race wheels if they are too much for everyday.
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Old 06-06-12, 09:34 PM
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My vote is for the 303. It does everything well and the same model is now strong enough for both CX riders and Tom Boonen to win the most brutal road races in the world. The 404 is only practical if you are doing long distance races on flat courses with a sprint finish. Not very likely to happen. I also prefer the symmetrical look of a 303 set vs the staggered 404/303 combo, but if you ignore looks the 303 is just the obvious choice for the OP's requirements. The hard question is going to be tubular vs clincher, but that usually depends on how much extra money and time one has to spare.
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Old 06-06-12, 10:10 PM
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I don't want to discourage your Zipp purchase. Zipps are Zipps.

Nonetheless, I think you should consider something like this:

https://www.novemberbicycles.com/rfsc-wheelset/
https://www.boydcycling.com/38mm-carbon-clinchers/

psimet would likely be the more expensive option, but you could use Alchemy hubs from Broomfield. Local and lighter.
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Old 06-06-12, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sbxx1985
I don't want to discourage your Zipp purchase. Zipps are Zipps.

Nonetheless, I think you should consider something like this:

https://www.novemberbicycles.com/rfsc-wheelset/
https://www.boydcycling.com/38mm-carbon-clinchers/

psimet would likely be the more expensive option, but you could use Alchemy hubs from Broomfield. Local and lighter.
I'd go boyd over november...I don't like novembers business model at all, the fact they don't really stock much means you could be sol if you run into warranty issues...they are completely reliant on pre-orders...so basically you front them the money..they import the wheels, mark them up, ship them out....I'll take the convenience of known quality and a better relationship with my lbs...not to mention zipp is phenomenal when it comes to warranty issues.
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Old 06-06-12, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ilovecycling
The 404 is only practical if you are doing long distance races on flat courses with a sprint finish.
My mind has been blown. 100g weight difference relegates these to the flats with a sprint finish? What??!?

Originally Posted by sbxx1985
I don't want to discourage your Zipp purchase. Zipps are Zipps.

Nonetheless, I think you should consider something like this:

https://www.novemberbicycles.com/rfsc-wheelset/
https://www.boydcycling.com/38mm-carbon-clinchers/
Until those companies start actively heat testing their epoxies and posting the results, I'd not recommend them for somebody that lives in the mountains.

There has not yet been a Zipp firecrest meltdown.
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Old 06-06-12, 10:28 PM
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I was struggling between these two wheels as well, this thread is a godsend! Thanks for all the good info guys.
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Old 06-06-12, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jmX
...
Until those companies start actively heat testing their epoxies and posting the results, I'd not recommend them for somebody that lives in the mountains.

There has not yet been a Zipp firecrest meltdown.
Yeah, this part is important to me, Zipp is claiming they fixed the heat buildup problem, whereas if you look at the November site they make you sign an acknowledgement that the warranty will be void if you use them on dirt, centuries, events requiring a downhill neutral rollout... pretty much if you use the brakes you're out of warranty. Boyd reminds you to alternate brakes instead of riding them. Zipp says they've solved the problem.

I guess I just drank the Zipp coolaid, when it comes down to it.
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Old 06-06-12, 11:29 PM
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I have both and prefer my 303s. The 303s are noticeably lighter and aren't pushed around as much in the wind as the 404s can be. In crosswinds, the 303s don't feel much different than a set of box section aluminum wheels but the 404s definitely handle like a deep dish wheel.
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Old 06-06-12, 11:32 PM
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Also, this is completely subjective, but the 303s feel about 85-90% as fast as my 404s. Just a feeling though and I have zero data to back up that statement...
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Old 06-07-12, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jmX
Until those companies start actively heat testing their epoxies and posting the results, I'd not recommend them for somebody that lives in the mountains.
There is definitely testing that goes on with the resins and epoxies. Just recently the rims we are using have gone through a change to use better resins and also a 3K weave on the brake track. That has helped significantly and I can tell you personally we have only had one rim warp from heat. It was following the USPro road race that we just had here in Greenville. A spectator was following a car going down the 2.2 mile hill. Because there was people everywhere the car kept it under 15mph the whole way down the hill with my customer stuck behind the car. 10 minutes of continuous braking later on a hot day and that was enough to warp a rim. I am thinking it would be enough to make any carbon rim meet their doom.

Keep in mind the manufacturer that is making our rims is also doing it for some of the largest companies out there. It's not some fly by night Chinese manufacturer who is trying to produce their rims 5 cents cheaper than their neighbor down the street. The rim manufacturer does a LOT of testing on these rims including a heat test. It's a standard 4 seconds on, 4 seconds off braking over the course of 12 minutes. The temperature will gradually rise and then plateau at 90 degrees C and stay there for the rest of the test. The rims are rated to 160 degrees C so it's well within that which is why we encourage modulation.

We don't like when products fail and we still realize that ANY carbon clinchers can have a potential for heat problems. I compare this to driving in the snow. If you live in Lake Tahoe in December maybe a Ferrari is not the best car for you. But if you know how to drive in the snow and when it may not be the best idea you can still drive in some pretty snowy conditions (that's the Buffalo in me coming out).

Originally Posted by jmX
There has not yet been a Zipp firecrest meltdown.
Yes, there has. Granted Zipp has done some great things to advance the carbon clincher market and the products they put out are great (I will never discount that). I do get emails all the time though about "This happened to my **** when I was riding". They have done a lot of work to ensure that their rims can handle a lot and they have the marketing budget to spread that word, but there is still potential for them to overheat when going down a steep enough and long enough hill.
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Old 06-07-12, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jmX
My mind has been blown. 100g weight difference relegates these to the flats with a sprint finish? What??!?
I was giving an example (or the only example) of when a 404 would be a better choice than the 303. It has nothing to do with the 100 grams, but the marginal improvement in aerodynamics and rear wheel stiffness. You can ride a rear disc as your every day wheel if you want to, but that doesn't make it a practical choice. In other words 303 > 404 for everything except that long, flat race with the sprint finish.
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Old 06-07-12, 07:13 AM
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Haven't ridden the 303s but have 404FCs. They aren't too bad at all in the wind. If that was your only reservation then you would probably be OK.
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Old 06-07-12, 07:18 AM
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OP here--

julianfranco - awesome thanks! firecrest or prior model? Great location you have there... I rode Cycling Escapes climbing camp last year out of Agoura Hills, with all those loops off Mullholland - awesome roads!!!! I was actually thinking about Deer Creek Road as I consider the heat build-up issue, I definitely braked the entire way down that thing, there aren't that many roads like that, but when you get on them, wow, yeah, I am braking!!!!

mr. boyd - what do you think, does my light weight (110) mitigate my tendency to brake a lot on descents, in terms of using a carbon clincher? I'm not asking for a guarantee, just a gut feel. Your offerings are interesting, but I think I already mentally committed to brand Z.
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Old 06-07-12, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tombailey
Haven't ridden the 303s but have 404FCs. They aren't too bad at all in the wind. If that was your only reservation then you would probably be OK.
wind and ride feel are my reservations. I was told (by what should be a VERY good source) that the 404's are disturbingly stiff, making them feel like they might break loose around corners. not that they actually *did* brake loose, just that they feel that way.

The wind thing is very important for me, because of my size and, honestly, my timidity, I do lose a lot of time on descents in the wind b/c of the mental aspect of descending while being pushed around by the wind. As I said earlier, I litterally lost places in a race a couple weeks ago due to my lack of descending speed, b/c I was braking out of fear. That is more of an issue for me than climbing weight, and *may* even outweigh the aero benefits of the 404.

These are the kinds of things I'm pondering.

Still leaning towards 303 and considering 404 rear, but not liking the aesthetics that much.

THanks all, keep it coming!
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Old 06-07-12, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jmX
My mind has been blown. 100g weight difference relegates these to the flats with a sprint finish? What??!?


That plus

Originally Posted by ilovecycling
The hard question is going to be tubular vs clincher, but that usually depends on how much extra money and time one has to spare.
Depends upon money and time? The Zipp prices are close between the two and I have no idea what time to spare means
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Old 06-07-12, 07:45 AM
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Vgrl, if you shopped around and found a good deal on the 303s, can you share with us where and how much?
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Old 06-07-12, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven

Depends upon money and time? The Zipp prices are close between the two and I have no idea what time to spare means
1) Cost of the tubulars.
Good tubular tires are around $100 each. You get a flat, and the tire is toast, unless you cut it open, replace the tube, and resew it, (or pay someone to do it, so that is money or time.) Most people tend to throw away flatted tubulars.

2) time spent gluing them.

Done right, you pre stretch the tire on a rim for a day or so. Then you apply a bead of glue to tire and rim, let dry a day, apply a second bead of glue, let dry, then apply a third bead of glue, install the tire, clean up the mess, and wait another day to dry.

So it takes a fair amount of time to properly glue a tubular. Or you can pay someone to do this, which usually means you're not only paying for the work, but also buying your tubulars at retail.

Thus, riding tubulars is typically a bit more expensive, and a bit more of a hassle. How significant that to any one is a subjective judgment.
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Old 06-07-12, 08:00 AM
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Thanks ML. I didn't see it that way at first

Edit: Or should I call you Wilier 0.7 now?
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Old 06-07-12, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by coachboyd
There is definitely testing that goes on with the resins and epoxies. Just recently the rims we are using have gone through a change to use better resins and also a 3K weave on the brake track. That has helped significantly and I can tell you personally we have only had one rim warp from heat. It was following the USPro road race that we just had here in Greenville. A spectator was following a car going down the 2.2 mile hill. Because there was people everywhere the car kept it under 15mph the whole way down the hill with my customer stuck behind the car. 10 minutes of continuous braking later on a hot day and that was enough to warp a rim. I am thinking it would be enough to make any carbon rim meet their doom.

Keep in mind the manufacturer that is making our rims is also doing it for some of the largest companies out there. It's not some fly by night Chinese manufacturer who is trying to produce their rims 5 cents cheaper than their neighbor down the street. The rim manufacturer does a LOT of testing on these rims including a heat test. It's a standard 4 seconds on, 4 seconds off braking over the course of 12 minutes. The temperature will gradually rise and then plateau at 90 degrees C and stay there for the rest of the test. The rims are rated to 160 degrees C so it's well within that which is why we encourage modulation.

We don't like when products fail and we still realize that ANY carbon clinchers can have a potential for heat problems. I compare this to driving in the snow. If you live in Lake Tahoe in December maybe a Ferrari is not the best car for you. But if you know how to drive in the snow and when it may not be the best idea you can still drive in some pretty snowy conditions (that's the Buffalo in me coming out).



Yes, there has. Granted Zipp has done some great things to advance the carbon clincher market and the products they put out are great (I will never discount that). I do get emails all the time though about "This happened to my **** when I was riding". They have done a lot of work to ensure that their rims can handle a lot and they have the marketing budget to spread that word, but there is still potential for them to overheat when going down a steep enough and long enough hill.
been following your blog, this is why i recommended Boyd over November...those November guys really try hard to knock the marketing power the larger guys have and then spin their own twisted reverse psychology marketing to make you justify their wheels. Boyd genuinely puts in the time it takes to ensure quality, they actually get on the plane and hop the big puddle to put themselves where they need to be.??
anyways, Boyd were you in Greenville a few weeks ago? Saw a van with boyd logos across the side at the bottom of paris mountain.
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