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2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 14515744)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8006/7...86807a97_z.jpg
posture by El-Carpaso, on Flickr Ok, thanks for the input so far. It has given me lots to think about. Here is a quick picture of my cycling posture on the hoods. Now you might notice that the bike looks really small. This is because I am a fairly big guy and at my size 700c wheels start looking very small on a frame. Secondly there is a bit of angle distortion. The picture should have been taken from the same level where my bum is, but since it was raining we didn't have time to adjust angles. So it's taken from head level which makes the bike look tiny. But even though the bike looks small, it really is not. I'm not too far ahead since the handlebar covers the front hub when I look down, I don't feel cramped and in my opinion all the angles look kinda right. Ok, of course the top tube could be a lot longer but I don't feel comfy on a longer bike. Believe me, I've tried.One of the reasons why I felt a loss of power is that I noticed my saddle was way back and nowhere near the KOPS. So I moved the saddle forward and up (2cm forward and 1cm up). Moving the saddle really gave me a lot of power back. But I imagine that I could get rid of the spacers at some point to get even lower. I know I can manage it with time since I'm still quite young and adaptable. The reason for this really was to find the optimal position between aero and power output to maximize speed. It would seem it will be a long journey... KOPS is baloney. Your best riding position maybe 1 inch behind KOPS. You say you won't feel better on a longer fit above. Sorry about that...but you are then just plain stuck in a bad position. Below is a good recreational fit along side an early Hincapie. Common theme for a good fit is independent of drop. You need adequate reach. |
Originally Posted by jmX
(Post 14515194)
I found that I had to really experiment with my drop to find where I was fastest. 6" of drop and I was slower due to too much power loss, 3" of drop I made much more power but was still not that fast due to aero penalties. The answer for me seemed to be 4.5" of drop.
Also, FWIW, I train 70% of the time in my 4.5" of drop position, much of that time stretched out even further on aerobars (hip angle probably 85 degrees), and the instant I go back to the hoods I can make more power. I could probably train that position all I wanted, but I'd still make more power by opening up that angle a bit. One of these days I'll get a TT bike. There is a good article out on the web that escapes me...that compares the hip angle of TT and road bikes. It is not that different in spite of very different seat tube angle and setback. Of course generally a much flatter back is achievable on a TT bike with more upright sta. This is simply because less saddle setback promotes a more open hip angle which allows further lowering of the torso and closing the hip angle back to a typical road bike in the drops. A simple experiment we can all do...and I do this once in a while on an open road is...move my bottom all the way out to the tip of my saddle which dramatically opens my hip angle then rest my elbows on my handlebar tops replicating a TT position. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 14515814)
Common fit on the 41. Guy slams his stem and not enough horizontal reach. Arms are vertical and basically like posts holding up a tent.
KOPS is baloney. Your best riding position maybe 1 inch behind KOPS. You say you won't feel better on a longer fit above. Sorry about that...but you are then just plain stuck in a bad position. Below is a good recreational fit along side an early Hincapie. Common theme for a good fit is independent of drop. You need adequate reach. option. Unslam? This stuff is seriously way too complicated |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 14516244)
so now what? Seat back? Longer stem? A new bike is obviously not an
option. Unslam? This stuff is seriously way too complicated You can't set up a bike from a pros picture or try why they try. |
It seems odd to me that very often on bicycle forums people recommend bike fits from the LBS but then they also seemingly randomly shout "slam that stem". Wouldn't it make sense that during your bike fit the stem would be sitting at the appropriate level for your body & the bike? I understand that not everyone gets a bike fit and those that do don't necessarily slam their stem afterwards. But the "slam the stem" mantra seems to completely ignore fit issues.
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It's partially a joke to just post slam your stem, but as mentioned before in this thread somepeople are more comfortable with lots of drop vs. little to no drop.
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I for one don't think it's a good idea to mess around with your bike fit unless you know what you're doing. That goes double for people with unusual dimensions.
I'd recommend you talk to the best fitter you can find in your area, and check to make sure they have experience with tall riders. The fitter can get you into the right spot, reduce repetitive injuries, and can explain to you why doing X results in Y. On a side note, lactic acid is fuel, not a caustic waste product. You can't feel it, and the only way you know how much lactic acid is in your system/muscles is with a blood test. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 14516244)
so now what? Seat back? Longer stem? A new bike is obviously not an
option. Unslam? This stuff is seriously way too complicated Thing is...you don't know if your setback is right or wrong for you. I can tell by your picture however your reach isn't conventional...and I showed you a couple of examples...Hincapie is 6'3". I asked you for a saddle tip to handlebar center dimension and you didn't post it. If you do, I can make a suggestion as to how much you need to increase your stem length. I will provide another suggestion. Drop a weighted string from the nose of your saddle with your bike upright on level ground. Measure the lateral distance from saddle nose plum to BB aka crank center. This is called setback. Let me know that dimension. PS: Stack and Reach your 61 Crux cross bike is almost identical to my 58 Roubaix SL3. You are almost 5" taller than me. My personal opinion is...your fit is mostly off because you are slamming the stem on a bike that is too small for you. If I order a Crux...a bike I would consider owning for general riding...it would be a 61. FYI. |
Originally Posted by DaveWC
(Post 14516331)
It seems odd to me that very often on bicycle forums people recommend bike fits from the LBS but then they also seemingly randomly shout "slam that stem". Wouldn't it make sense that during your bike fit the stem would be sitting at the appropriate level for your body & the bike? I understand that not everyone gets a bike fit and those that do don't necessarily slam their stem afterwards. But the "slam the stem" mantra seems to completely ignore fit issues.
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
(Post 14516408)
I for one don't think it's a good idea to mess around with your bike fit unless you know what you're doing. That goes double for people with unusual dimensions.
I'd recommend you talk to the best fitter you can find in your area, and check to make sure they have experience with tall riders. The fitter can get you into the right spot, reduce repetitive injuries, and can explain to you why doing X results in Y. On a side note, lactic acid is fuel, not a caustic waste product. You can't feel it, and the only way you know how much lactic acid is in your system/muscles is with a blood test. Lee Trevino was asked...Mr. Trevino, with your unorthodox swing...why is you never took lessons? Why that's simple sonny boy. I never met a teacher I couldn't beat. |
It's necessary to know the length of the saddle when we're talking saddle setback. Setback will be different when he's on a Toupe than when he's on an Arione. The fit could be made identical with these two saddles.
But yeah, bike looks too small to me also.
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 14516464)
Thing is...you don't know if your setback is right or wrong for you. I can tell by your picture however your reach isn't conventional...and I showed you a couple of examples...Hincapie is 6'3".
I asked you for a saddle tip to handlebar center dimension and you didn't post it. If you do, I can make a suggestion as to how much you need to increase your stem length. I will provide another suggestion. Drop a weighted string from the nose of your saddle with your bike upright on level ground. Measure the lateral distance from saddle nose plum to BB aka crank center. This is called setback. Let me know that dimension. PS: Stack and Reach your 61 Crux cross bike is almost identical to my 58 Roubaix SL3. You are almost 5" taller than me. My personal opinion is...your fit is mostly off because you are slamming the stem on a bike that is too small for you. If I order a Crux...a bike I would consider owning for general riding...it would be a 61. FYI. |
Originally Posted by roadwarrior
(Post 14516282)
It's not if you know what you are doing. Do not move the seat back. This changes your pedal stroke, assuming that you are in the best position for that part of the fit. Putting a longer stem with the correct rise might sort out the rest of your issue.
You can't set up a bike from a pros picture or try why they try. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 14516537)
False premise. Probably 80% of fits I see coming out of bike shops are poor anyway.
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 14515744)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8006/7...86807a97_z.jpg
posture by El-Carpaso, on Flickr Ok, thanks for the input so far. It has given me lots to think about. Here is a quick picture of my cycling posture on the hoods. Now you might notice that the bike looks really small. This is because I am a fairly big guy and at my size 700c wheels start looking very small on a frame. Secondly there is a bit of angle distortion. The picture should have been taken from the same level where my bum is, but since it was raining we didn't have time to adjust angles. So it's taken from head level which makes the bike look tiny. But even though the bike looks small, it really is not. I'm not too far ahead since the handlebar covers the front hub when I look down, I don't feel cramped and in my opinion all the angles look kinda right. Ok, of course the top tube could be a lot longer but I don't feel comfy on a longer bike. Believe me, I've tried. One of the reasons why I felt a loss of power is that I noticed my saddle was way back and nowhere near the KOPS. So I moved the saddle forward and up (2cm forward and 1cm up). Moving the saddle really gave me a lot of power back. But I imagine that I could get rid of the spacers at some point to get even lower. I know I can manage it with time since I'm still quite young and adaptable. The reason for this really was to find the optimal position between aero and power output to maximize speed. It would seem it will be a long journey... It's really not as complicated as it seems listening to a rash of advice from riders who've all gone through the long fit process. If I described all the stuff I've tried, I'd fill pages; but what matters is the process of trying stuff and experimenting, and that is a lot simpler. The basic jist is, if you want to try something, try something. You are young; you ain't going to hurt yourself if you just listen to your body. There should be no sharp pains anywhere. Muscle tension, say in the neck or shoulders, is a sign of lack of adaptation; take some time to adapt and see where you are. Joint pain is a no-no and a sign of incompatibility; if a joint hurts, change something immediately to make it not hurt. Keep this in mind as you try stuff, listen to your body, and you'll be fine. |
On a lighter note, did you get nailed with the squid ink in Mario Kart?
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Didn't Nick Legan write about this stem slamming nonsense on Velonews a short while ago?
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Steve Hogg provides about the most sensible fitting guidance that I've seen on the web. Quite a bit of info to absorb, and while someone might not end up with the absolute perfect fit by following it, I'd be very surprised if someone ended up with a bad fit.
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/faq/ |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 14516464)
Thing is...you don't know if your setback is right or wrong for you. I can tell by your picture however your reach isn't conventional...and I showed you a couple of examples...Hincapie is 6'3".
I asked you for a saddle tip to handlebar center dimension and you didn't post it. If you do, I can make a suggestion as to how much you need to increase your stem length. I will provide another suggestion. Drop a weighted string from the nose of your saddle with your bike upright on level ground. Measure the lateral distance from saddle nose plum to BB aka crank center. This is called setback. Let me know that dimension. And thank you all again for the valuable input. I'll need to tweak a few things and take a few pictures and hopefully I can solve this without needing to buy a new bike (since I can't afford one for at least a year) |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 14517853)
Right. I'll get those measurements in the morning. Bear with me.
And thank you all again for the valuable input. I'll need to tweak a few things and take a few pictures and hopefully I can solve this without needing to buy a new bike (since I can't afford one for at least a year) And fit isn't that difficult all said. Yes you can obsess but you can get in the ballpark pretty easily. So post some metrics and will give you some guidance. There really is a high correlation between rider size and cockpit on the pro tour. Basically these metrics can be applied to average cyclists as well. If you want corroboration...run your body metrics through the Competitive Cyclist Fit Calculator. I find the output to be very reliable and correlates pretty close to my fit. |
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
(Post 14517457)
If you've got your power back, and you handle the position fine, then ride it like that for a while. You really aren't in that low of a position; you could go lower. But ride it like that for a while and see where it takes you. I don't think the bike is too small, FWIW. Eventually you'll probably find yourself with no spacers at all and a -17, 130mm stem (sort of hard to find, but doable). But don't jump to that right away. It took me four years to get into the racing position I'm in currently from the rec rider position I was in formerly.
It's really not as complicated as it seems listening to a rash of advice from riders who've all gone through the long fit process. If I described all the stuff I've tried, I'd fill pages; but what matters is the process of trying stuff and experimenting, and that is a lot simpler. The basic jist is, if you want to try something, try something. You are young; you ain't going to hurt yourself if you just listen to your body. There should be no sharp pains anywhere. Muscle tension, say in the neck or shoulders, is a sign of lack of adaptation; take some time to adapt and see where you are. Joint pain is a no-no and a sign of incompatibility; if a joint hurts, change something immediately to make it not hurt. Keep this in mind as you try stuff, listen to your body, and you'll be fine. |
Ok, so I did to measurements
Saddle tip to handlebar 60cm / 23.6 in setback (from saddle tip) 10.5cm / 4.1 in handlebar drop 14cm / 5.5 in I now realize I might need a 140mm stem... Or not. This is weird because the bike was completely fine before all this hassle. I am completely over thinking this but the good thing is that in the end my posture might be very "racy" (as in months or years) |
Your reach is way too short
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1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 14518659)
Ok, so I did to measurements
Saddle tip to handlebar 60cm / 23.6 in setback (from saddle tip) 10.5cm / 4.1 in handlebar drop 14cm / 5.5 in I now realize I might need a 140mm stem... Or not. This is weird because the bike was completely fine before all this hassle. I am completely over thinking this but the good thing is that in the end my posture might be very "racy" (as in months or years) PS: not sure your background but keep in mind when you move your saddle fore/aft, you change the distance from top of saddle to BB. So if you push your saddle back, you need to lower it by about 1/3 of how much you push it back to derive the same height. |
Great thread - I did not know that lowering your stem was called slamming - Just try to remember that this may not be a good thing for us older guys with bad backs - THANKS -
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 14516244)
so now what? Seat back? Longer stem? A new bike is obviously not an
option. Unslam? This stuff is seriously way too complicated |
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