FasterNearGirls

Good point. Thx.

FasterNearGirls

No, I did not re-calibrate the garmin edge 500. I'll do a roll out measurement, but don't think it should change much between 2 Michelin 700c 23mm tires. Thanks.

Lanterne Rogue

I'm betting your expensive new equipment dramatically increased the size of your schlong and huevos. Did you factor this into your weight calculations?

pgjackson

Awesome!

pgjackson

You will be surprised. Tires wear down, thus slightly decreasing the amount of distance traveled per rotation. Also, differences in wheel width can cause the same tire to stand up a little taller or lay down a little flatter and change the distance traveled. Not by much, but multiply a couple mm difference per rotation by the number of rotations per mile and it could add up. I'm not sure what kind of quality control goes in to wheel building, but I'll bet that actual circumference measurements differ slightly between brands.

carpediemracing 

I look for coarse differences, not fine ones. I can't tell the difference between 2 wheelsets that are 50g apart, but put wheels under me that are 500g apart and it starts to make a difference. Add 200g more weight in tires, another 100g in tube weight, and suddenly the heavier wheels seem pretty sluggish.

Your wheel setup looks to be pretty similar, meaning tires etc. I don't know what the difference is between the PR3s and PR4s but I figure they're either the same or the 4s are "faster" (in a minute way, i.e. "fine" not "coarse").

If the freehub body is tight then the chain will droop up top when you backpedal.

You should verify that the wheel isn't flexing enough to touch your brake pads or frame. Check for paint damage on the chainstays and get the brakes really close so that they DO rub under pressure, then back them off until they don't.

The rims are similar aerodynamically. I don't consider the 46mm rims to be that aero compared to a normal light rim. I think the "coarse" difference hits when it's closer to 60-80mm (hence I went from the DV46 to Stinger 6s and am considering going taller - I got the Jet 6/9 f/r for training but they're too heavy for me to notice the aero stuff - I ride too slow - but a Stinger 9 or ENVE 7/8/9 kind of rim appeals to me). The taller more aero rims really make a difference once you've hit about 40-42 mph for a flattish sprint and maybe 45-48 mph for regular descending.

I think you've either overestimated your speed on the other wheels or underestimated it on the current ones. Do some more rides (I made some Strava segments just for this kind of thing) and see how things pan out.

stripes

This would matter if it was a Cateye computer. He's using a Garmin which is not affected by wheel diameter.

JaceK

My garmin is set to autocalibrate, meaning every ride it autochecks, occasionally it will beep at me and flash a message it adjusted the calibration. This setting is the factory default.

rangerdavid

effin legs

fishymamba

unless he is using a garmin speed/cadence sensor

seypat

Any weight gain there would be offset by the weight loss in his wallet!

nhluhr

The Garmin auto-calibrates its speed/cadence sensors unless for some reason you chose to manually set it.

From the Garmin Forums:

coachboyd

Sorry, I am a bit late to respond to this. Basically think of a spoke like a shower curtain. When you are pulling on the shower curtain that is just like the spoke pulling on a rim.

Now, say you wanted to open and close that shower curtain. If you grabbed directly below the ring you want to move and pulled, it is not going to move anywhere. This is like a radial spoke, the force goes directly from the hub to the rim. There is no angle going towards the rim.

To open and close a shower curtain you have to pull it at an angle compared to the rings. Once you are pulling at an angle the curtain will open and close. This is like a spoke that is crossed (specifically one that leaves the hub in a backward motion towards the rim).

Bob Dopolina 

Yeah, it's a quarter pounder with cheese...

Sounds like spoke tension to me.

nhluhr

It's possible the Reynolds rims have lower drag in direct headwinds but a deeper wheel will tend to have more drag in crosswinds unless significant aerodynamic shaping is done to improve that. However, going from 16h/20h bladed spokes on your Neuvations to 20/24 round spokes on your DV3Ks, your new wheels are likely LESS aerodynamic overall, even in headwinds, than your neuvations were.

From Zipp's testing ( https://www.zipp.com/_media/pdfs/tech...spokeshape.pdf ):
"Perhaps the most noticeable feature of this graph is the very high wattage of the round spoked 46mm deep wheel. Requiring more than 10 additional watts to spin when compared to the almost identical bladed spoke 46mm deep wheel, with which it shared nearly the identical drag curve!"

and

"Conclusion
Even the best rim designs and intentions can be negated by poor spoke choice. Round spokes offer very good strength and fatigue performance, but hold a substantial aerodynamic performance penalty and should be avoided in high performance aerodynamic wheels. The aerodynamic power differential between round and oval spokes is sufficiently higher than any possible weight savings, equating to tens of pounds of additional weight to the bike, so round spokes should be avoided regardless of weight advantage."

pgjackson

But only a high-performance rider will ever benefit from aero wheels. Anyone not getting paid to ride is not high performance.

pgjackson

That's great, but you said "for climbing, sprinting, changing pace, and cornering, radial doesn't belong on a rear wheel and that is probably the lag you are feeling." What lag? That implies that the hub is moving but the rim is not and spokes are flexing. The wheel is one single piece. All components move as one. You don't see pro riders changing wheels in the middle of a race, so why does it matter what spoke pattern you have?

nhluhr

I think he is just bagging on any wheel brands that use radial on either side of a rear wheel, his stance being that a wheel spoked with more tangential crossed spokes (on both sides) will provide better torque transmission. While that is technically true, I don't think it makes a bit of difference in actual performance.

Consider the major players in the wheel world and how they tend to spoke their rear wheels:

Zipp: Radial Drive, Cross NDS
Mavic: Radial Drive, Cross NDS
Fulcrum: Cross Drive, Radial NDS (but with twice as many drive side spokes)
Easton: Cross Drive, Radial NDS
Reynolds: Cross Drive, Radial NDS
Shimano: Cross Drive, Cross NDS

I think that about covers the majority of factory wheelsets out there and with the exception of Shimano wheels, they are ALL using Radial on one side of the rear wheel so I doubt that makes as much of a difference as Boyd seems to suggest.

I personally have wheels from Zipp, Fulcrum, and Shimano and while I like my Shimano's the best, it's not because of any perceived snap in acceleration.

I think anybody doing some racing or just wanting to be faster than their cycling buddies would consider their application a "high performance" application. Personally, having battled headwinds and crosswinds in 1300miles of riding this month, I know I wouldn't want to make my 45 miles of daily commuting or epic rides like RAMROD, or the 3 other centuries this month any harder due to excess wind drag.

coachboyd

Lace a rear wheel with radial spokes on each side. Fix the wheel so it doesn't move and put pressure on the hub (chain trying to move forward). The hub will move forward a bit without the rim moving at all (until the spokes start to shift so they are now at an angle).

Many companies do use radial on one side because the pulling spokes are on the other side of the wheel. It's much easier to build a wheel this way if you are building a lot of wheels. In the traditional 2cross on the drive side and radial on the non drive side the drive side spokes will do the "pulling". The non-drive side spokes basically hold the wheel in true. If you double cross both sides you are doubling the amount of pulling spokes and making for better transfer of torque.

Look at every wheel picture that has been posted here that has been built by a custom wheel builder and you will notice there are no radial spoke on those rear wheels.

rkwaki

I think we have gotten away from the op's question. As a sprinter I will tell you a few of my experiences. Right now, like others have said, the heat drains you and you are likely putting out less power than before therefore not sprinting/climbing as well.
When saying that you aren't hitting the speeds you were before while sprinting be careful. To compare sprints in this fashion everything has to be identical (i.e. road, winds, temp, fatigue levels, etc).
If you want to test your sprint get some of the elite/pro riders to give you a go, sprint training to a certain speed doesn't matter, what matters is can you beat someone in a sprint. Put the 'effort' in and go from there, don't let speed mislead you.

What wheels do I train on? Handbuilt 32H clinchers (2x front, 3x rear), though I love the look of my bike with my 404s on it I love the feel of the handbuilts plus they are indestructible.

FasterNearGirls

Thanks.

Yeah, this thread has gone in different directions and started some interesting discussions. But it has essentially planted more negatives in my mind about my new wheels! People are telling me they are less aero and less efficient in transmitting torque. This sucks!

Did I spend a lot of money for a downgrade (aside from the looks upgrade)??
Can someone please tell me that my new wheels are better and great and aero and efficient and a great deal, versatile and good bang for my buck, and way better than the previous ones I was running?? Please? Thank you very much.

rkwaki

They're better but now you need to work on the engine is that better?
You put a set of beautiful OZ Racing wheels on your Honda, now turn that Honda into a Ferrari.
Just messing with you, if I were to take a guess it's all in your head.

And if you don't want the wheels I'll trade you straight up for my handbuilts, I'll even pay shipping both ways. Done.

FasterNearGirls

I'll keep that in mind.
OK. Thanks. I'll use them for training and racing so they won't last many years anyway
Think I'm gonna go ahead and cough up the extra $250 for the Reynolds Assurance Program RAP. 2 years no questions asked replacement 1 front 1 rear... The customer service representative has been helpful via email regarding other questions I had. I wonder if I should ask for his take on the aero comparison, spoke shape and lacing. haha.

rkwaki

My advice is that you should communicate with the guys you are riding with. If they are more elite level riders tell them you want to work on sprint/climb development. Provided they aren't complete d-bags they will work with you. I work with guys on the road all the time that want to become stronger sprinters. I lead them out and when we hit a certain speed I tell them to go (come around me and sprint) - I then give them a little space and chase. It is a win win for all.

pgjackson

Go find the biggest hill in your area and climb it 4-5 times. Next time, find the flattest 10 mile road and do sprint intervals out an back. Repeat for a month or two and you will get stronger.