Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Is there a Doctor in the House

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Is there a Doctor in the House

Old 08-12-12, 08:36 PM
  #51  
RUOkie
Scarlet Knight
 
RUOkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In a Haggard Song
Posts: 11,271

Bikes: 2009 ORBEA Onix Rival. 2012 Felt Breed, 1999 Raleigh 500

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 4 Posts
Ok rehab doc chiming in here. I agree with surgeonstone 100%. To the point that my roadID expressly states that if I'm found on the side of the road, DO NOT INTUBATE OR DO CPR!!! Just like that. I don't want to be the good outcome from an anoxic event
RUOkie is offline  
Old 08-12-12, 08:51 PM
  #52  
bsektzer
Senior Member
 
bsektzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 517

Bikes: Pinarello Paris/Ui2, BMC TeamMachine SLR01/Campy Record EPS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas View Post
You do make a good point. If sca on bike and you go down, CPR is worth a try.

If you are taken down by a crash and have a full arrest, it's likely game over.

But I get your point that in the heat of the moment it may not be possible to know which caused which.
Thanks for taking a second look at the ideas in play here.

FWIW, despite the vascular disease I have/had, my echocardiograms and nuclear stress tests are still essentially normal. Screwed up vessels but essentially healthy muscle. Go figure. And trust me, the lifestyle change I'm going through in the wake of this event has been more like a spiritual awakening than a disease mitigation strategy. Now if I can just get my *&^%+@! FTP above 200W...

BTW, I know damn good and well sooner or later, the CAD will get me. But I view that as a sort of advantage. At least I pretty much know what's gonna take me out. As to the when of it, well, let's just say I'd prefer it happened on the bike. And yeah, you have my permission to thump my chest as few (but not too many) times if it'll make you feel better .
bsektzer is offline  
Old 08-12-12, 09:05 PM
  #53  
bsektzer
Senior Member
 
bsektzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 517

Bikes: Pinarello Paris/Ui2, BMC TeamMachine SLR01/Campy Record EPS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RUOkie View Post
Ok rehab doc chiming in here. I agree with surgeonstone 100%. To the point that my roadID expressly states that if I'm found on the side of the road, DO NOT INTUBATE OR DO CPR!!! Just like that. I don't want to be the good outcome from an anoxic event
Man, I've dealt with many, many many of those "good outcomes". I guess the key here is how hypoxic for how long? I think assuming any degree of hypoxia for any duration means spending the rest of your 'life' drooling into the bed clothes is a bit presumptive. Besides, that sort of scenario can be dealt with pretty effectively with advance directives. The vast majority of the cases I saw that ended up in sub-acutecare facilities got there by totally ignoring and failing to prepare for their own mortality.

The one inescapable truth of this life is no one gets out alive 8^] I guess it's up to each of us to deal with that as best we can in our own way.

Last edited by bsektzer; 08-12-12 at 09:15 PM.
bsektzer is offline  
Old 08-12-12, 09:49 PM
  #54  
Rx Rider
Geck, wo ist mein Fahrrad
 
Rx Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Front Range
Posts: 715
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No offense to the docs and other medical professionals but I don't even want you working on me, let alone someone with limited experience. my last 10 visits to the ER have taught me what a waste of time it is going to the ER. mind you I've never had a heart condition or stroke or such, all boo-boos. I have stitched myself up and the scars look just like the docs handy work. if some of you want to be ready for dealing with a boo boo all you'll need is a roll of paper tape or masking tape is the best band-aid I've ever used, it will do until better supplies are available.
I would much rather someone say a prayer for me and call a Porsche 911, red would be nice so I can enjoy my last moments on earth. I didn't know roadID came in leave me alone option, I'll be looking into that.

I cut the top of my thumb badly a few years ago right across the knuckle into the tendon. it was so deep I knew stitches were out and any doc trying to fix it would just make it worse. it amazed me how incensed people became when I refused to go to the ER.
I also have to say I have much admiration for those of you that have chosen medicine for a career it's certainly work I could never do to anyone else.
Rx Rider is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 12:49 PM
  #55  
tagaproject6
Senior Member
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,551

Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Record);Cinelli Xperience (Force);Specialized Allez (Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition;De Rosa King 3 Limited(Force 22);DeRosa Merak(Red):Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Hydro(Di2)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 549 Post(s)
Liked 274 Times in 142 Posts
Originally Posted by Rx Rider View Post
10 visits to the ER have taught me what a waste of time it is going to the ER. mind you I've never had a heart condition or stroke or such, all boo-boos.
It took you 10 visits??? Not a lot of people outside of the medical field know what constitute an "emergency".
tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 01:02 PM
  #56  
slowandsteady
Faster but still slow
 
slowandsteady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 5,978

Bikes: Trek 830 circa 1993 and a Fuji WSD Finest 1.0 2006

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by surgeonstone View Post
Listen, don't argue with me on this one. We are talking about accidents, trauma. In trauma, the dead stay dead, the living may have a chance if you act quickly. There is nothing you can do out "there" cycling save pressure on a spurting vessel, calling 911, maybe applying a tourniquet IF you know when to apply and how. The kind of stuff OP is talking about can be handled at home with a good wash and proper dressing application. I for one, will not clutter my ride for the possibility of this happening. Now back to cardiac arrests. I have handled thousands of trauma cases and believe me when I say, CPR on a person in cardiac arrest FROM trauma is a futile exercise. If the heart has stopped from exsanguination then CPR is silly. The patient needs blood . When I have resuscitated the trauma case and gotten a blood pressure and vitals back, I have always regretted it due to the anoxic brain injury that will have occurred. Yes, I have opened chests, massaged flaccid, empty hearts, poured in blood, rushed the dying to the OR, but again I say, in trauma, the dead stay dead. Our efforts are towards that golden hour where you see death approaching and rapid incisive action can save a life. Now having said all that, if out cycling and my 59 year old heart just stops, please at least thunk my chest and do CPR. But if you see me in a puddle of blood with a stilled heart, say a prayer and leave my chest alone.
Not all trauma involves copious amounts of spurting blood. Maybe after a surgeon gets done with a patient it does....
slowandsteady is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 01:04 PM
  #57  
slowandsteady
Faster but still slow
 
slowandsteady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 5,978

Bikes: Trek 830 circa 1993 and a Fuji WSD Finest 1.0 2006

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by bsektzer View Post
First off, I'm no MD. I was a lowly RRT for 28 year, and I worked ER's, Trauma Units, and various ICU's almost exclusively during that time, so I've been through more codes than most people will ever see. My experience with trauma induced arrests would overwhelmingly support surgeonstone's assertion.

However, what concerns me is the fact that 99 time out of 100, the first person on the scene is not going to have the medical skill or experience to distinguish a trauma induced arrest from an SCA that resulted in trauma when the victim went down. I fully understand that in many cases, it will be obvious. Missing limbs, compound fractures, obvious skull deformations, voluminous blood, these sorts of things combined with asystole pretty much tell the whole story. But what about the guy who has an SCA event while riding, falls and in the process of going down, lacerates his scalp. Let's further assume, for the sake of argument, that his guy is on Plavix because he has known CAD. So here you've got someone down without a pulse and a fair amount of blood on the pavement. If I'm that guy, I sure as hell hope the first person to come to my aid has NOT read this thread.

And just so you fully understand my misgivings about a blanket approach that says "if there's trauma and no pulse, move on", on February 12th of this year, I was that guy who had the SCA. I was successfully resuscitated for 3 minutes before EMS showed up. I was down for another 2 minute before they hit me with the AED, and yeah, after the first 120 joule jolt, I did wake up just "like in the movies". BTW, I'm back on the bike, and damned near back to the form I was in before the event.

In any case, I think the real point is having the training and equipment on hand to render intelligent basic first aid (and I do mean basic) is a good thing. I'd hate to see the value of that idea get lost in a discussion of "corner cases" vs coroner's cases.
Good thing Surgeonstone wasn't on the scene....
slowandsteady is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 01:26 PM
  #58  
Rx Rider
Geck, wo ist mein Fahrrad
 
Rx Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Front Range
Posts: 715
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tagaproject6 View Post
It took you 10 visits??? Not a lot of people outside of the medical field know what constitute an "emergency".
they were all forced visits. my job at a steel roll slitting company earned me the nickname stitches. better than bleedy I guess.
Rx Rider is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 02:59 PM
  #59  
tagaproject6
Senior Member
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,551

Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Record);Cinelli Xperience (Force);Specialized Allez (Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition;De Rosa King 3 Limited(Force 22);DeRosa Merak(Red):Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Hydro(Di2)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 549 Post(s)
Liked 274 Times in 142 Posts
Originally Posted by Rx Rider View Post
they were all forced visits. my job at a steel roll slitting company earned me the nickname stitches. better than bleedy I guess.
Ah, that makes more sense.
tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 04:11 PM
  #60  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,201
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1185 Post(s)
Liked 286 Times in 174 Posts
Originally Posted by slowandsteady View Post
Not all trauma involves copious amounts of spurting blood. Maybe after a surgeon gets done with a patient it does....
I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing that trauma without significant blood loss doesn't cause the heart to stop. It either stops due to a defect of some type that has nothing to do with trauma or significant blood loss.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 05:59 PM
  #61  
mihlbach
Senior Member
 
mihlbach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 6,616
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 46 Posts
Originally Posted by NCbiker View Post
Surgeon with 25 years of trauma experience
Or
Newbie certified Firefighter/First Responder/EMT

Hmmm, I wonder who I should believe?
This is not meant to be a jab at Surgeonstone. His opinions here obviously have valuable, but you should never just have blind faith in someone outright because they are a doctor no matter what their experience. Medicine is a business as much as it is a life saving/prolonging endeavor. I'm not a doctor (of medicine, anyway), but I do teach med students, and I can tell you there are some real idiotic opinionated greedy egotistical and untrustworthy people out there with MDs. Fortunately they are a minority. Nonetheless the blind faith that some people put in MDs advice on this forum (and elsewhere) disturbs me.

Last edited by mihlbach; 08-13-12 at 06:15 PM.
mihlbach is offline  
Old 08-13-12, 07:15 PM
  #62  
NCbiker
Senior Member
 
NCbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
This is not meant to be a jab at Surgeonstone. His opinions here obviously have valuable, but you should never just have blind faith in someone outright because they are a doctor no matter what their experience. Medicine is a business as much as it is a life saving/prolonging endeavor. I'm not a doctor (of medicine, anyway), but I do teach med students, and I can tell you there are some real idiotic opinionated greedy egotistical and untrustworthy people out there with MDs. Fortunately they are a minority. Nonetheless the blind faith that some people put in MDs advice on this forum (and elsewhere) disturbs me.
I agree, I've had doctors who's mistakes have damn near killed me, but my question was logic based. Who would more likely be correct based on education and experience? A physician with 4 years of college, then 4 years of med school followed by 25 years of practice, or a EMT with one semester of training and minimal field experience? I also took Surgeonstone's comments in to account. If a person has bled to death, what good does it do to restart their heart if there is insufficient blood to pump. If one is successful at jump starting the victim, best case scenario, you've created a vegetable.

Now, for those worried I'm going to let them die by the side of the road, I'm pretty sure my conscience is not going to let me do that. I'll put every effort into bringing you back, even though as the good doctor suggests, your family may end up wishing I hadn't.
NCbiker is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
jorglueke
Advocacy & Safety
21
12-15-16 12:02 PM
Jarrett2
Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg)
20
06-04-16 08:03 PM
Chris516
Adaptive Cycling: Handcycles, Amputee Adaptation, Visual Impairment, and Other Needs
5
03-23-13 12:12 PM
ckaspar
Commuting
44
05-11-12 02:05 PM
ShootingCoach
Road Cycling
18
10-18-10 06:06 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.