Rekless1

I guess its all already been said.

My own thoughts for what ever its worth...

I mean if your trying to be an organizer, then you should have 'organizer' expectations. Put together a full group of riders, plan an attractive route, insure good communication to the interested parties up till the day of the event and lastly, get info from all involved who would like to participate again and any and all feedback related.

Sounds like you did well at most of that, be proud there.

If you want to 'lead' a ride, well that's a whole different animal. The leader is almost certainly going to have to be one of the stronger riders and the organizer would be the one to help insure that. If you rode that much of the ride solo than apparently you were the weakest rider. Sorry if that stings but I think you already know that. What you SHOULD have organized IMO, based on the route and mileage probably should have been promoted more as a 'tour' and not so much a 'ride'. Otherwise, assuming you knew who you had, you could have broken it up into groups allowing those slack on the leash that wanted it and meeting up at designated stopping points to regroup. I do this exact same thing with motorcycle rides I put together.

The biggest fault, you didn't seem to have any idea what so ever the caliber of rider that was going to show up and not at all how they expected to ride. My guess is to them as strangers, they probably didn't put to much thought into the one guy that kept complaining about getting dropped. I wonder where all the C riders from your past rides were that day? Either way it sounds like this is simply just not your group. Learn from the experience, use that knowledge and look forward to how you might plan it differently next time.

I'd suggest you have better knowledge of who you invite to the next one and a clear understanding of whats to be expected so the majority at least, are on the same page. There will always be some that want to 'race' , you can't stop that, don't bother trying. Those of like minds will eventually gravitate together and those not....not so much. Have a back up plan for this type of scenerio and communicate that as well with an understanding that those who fail to and get lost are on thier own. Hopefully tho its segments of the group and not a single lone rider lost in the back.

Don't let it get you down tho, a bad day on the bike is better than a good day at........ (insert worse activity here )

So they say.

lungdoc

Some planned stops might also help, would allow the group to get together again and a chance to discuss the pace and splitting the group. Some routes also allow for short cuts if some riders are slower. One "ABC" social ride I often do (and A in this group isn't all that fast, it's an older guys/recreational A) meets for a stop even on weeknight 30km rides, someone brings cookies and there's always a group photo - allows the group to reassemble and still be social even if not all riding together. Several fairly strong riders bring their commuter-type bikes (hybrids or MTB w slicks) deliberately to keep their speed down.

hhnngg1

I would never ride with a group that was so militant that youre off the ride if you pass the leader. You might be on your own without the leader yes but if you wait for everyone all should be good.

milkbaby

There is one ride group in my club with strict rules set by the ride leader. They are mentioned explicitly in the ride announcements, and riders who do not follow the rules are asked to leave and banned from the next ride (with that group). It is meant mostly for newbies to group rides, so I feel that even if it appears to be a heavy handed approach, it is reasonable and the ride leader has good intentions.

I really hate it when a ride is announced as an easy no drop ride with a speed limit cap, but then some dorks want to ruin it by pulling faster than the announced speed limit, thus splitting the group and/or dropping riders. It scares away the newbies and slower riders that may just be hanging on at the announced paces. Lame...

hhnngg1

Faster riders are NEVER a problem for a group. If the nucleus of the group decides they don't want to ride that fast, let the fast guy go off the front. End of story. There's no rule that you have to hang with #1 the whole ride, especially on non hammerhead rides.

If the group leader is so slow that he can't even keep up with a single other rider on his own group, than he needs to reset the post on the rides, or accept the fact that folks in the area are simply a lot stronger and out of his league. Nobody's making anyone ride fast on these group rides. It just takes 2 riders who decide to ride at an easy pace together, and you've got a nucleus for anyone else who wants to chill out on the ride.

milkbaby

I do agree that one person going fast who gets the "reverse drop" treatment is not really a problem. But these rides are specifically announced as no-drop with a capped speed limit, so when a number of hammerheads hit the front, they end up blowing up the slower riders in the back or splitting the group when it isn't meant to be that kind of ride -- many people don't have a good idea of their pacing and will just go until they blow. It isn't as much fun to roll around solo or with only one other rider than it is with a bigger group, and oftentimes riders that get dropped like a hot potato don't come back which kinda works against the purpose of an easy social group ride. In other words, I wish the sausage fest up front would quit scaring off all the cute chicks!

gregf83 

While you may have had a clear idea of what the ride was intended to be and what the pace expectations were I suspect you may need to put it in more objective terms.

Perhaps you described the ride differently in your invitation but the terms you used above are open to interpretation and mean different things to different riders. A social conversational ride for lightweight bike racers may be significantly faster than novices can handle.

Specifying a pace for a ride is notoriously difficult as the primary metric that most try and use, speed, is not very good at conveying the effort required. 18mph into a 10mph wind is obviously a lot tougher than 18mph downhill with a tailwind. That said, unless everyone has power meters, speed is all you've got. Putting a cap on the speed might keep away some of the faster riders.

If the ride was as successful as you suggest then keep at it and see if you can build the numbers to the point where you get some slower riders to ride with. If you are laying out a nice route and inviting lots of people it's not realistic to expect everyone to ride slowly.

You might consider looking at the situation from the other rider's point of view. They are out on a ride that may take up a significant portion of their day, perhaps on a weekend. They want to make the ride 'count' in terms of improving their fitness, having fun or for whatever reason drives them. Spending 3 hrs riding slower than they want or stopping to wait frequently can be very frustrating.

The issue you are having is not that the riders aren't listening to you, it's that you've invited the wrong riders. You need to figure out how to get slower riders to come on your ride, not how to slow down fast riders as that won't make anyone happy.

Juan Foote

Thanks for the advice, you make a great point. I appreciate it.

telebianchi

+1 on the comment about trying to set up a longer ride at a slower pace. I can do 70+ miles but not at the B+ pace that many clubs do those miles. So I can either go out with the faster groups to do the higher miles and fall off the back, or go with a C+/B group whose pace I can keep but then I do fewer miles. But, as a participant and not an organizer/leader that is my choice.

You've mentioned that the ride was a "failure". It sounds a bit like you may have been the only one who felt that way but the other people were happy to have a nice route set up to ride. So maybe not such a failure after all.

Give the ride a few more tries. Maybe be more specific about the pace; find defined places to stop ("Well meet up at Rae's Cafe at mile 32 and have some of their famous apple pie!"); it might take a few rides until the right riders find you and you find them ... I think the faster riders will learn that your rides are not for them and they'll start showing up for other rides with faster projected pace ... and if you know your club well enough you could even suggest what other rides might fit them better; find a second person to lead the ride with you to help to "corral" riders; train yourself to be a faster stronger rider ... I know that often the sweep on larger rides I've done (sometimes me) is actually a strong rider compared to the advertised pace that has just chosen to stay at the back that day.

Bacciagalupe

I'm guessing you've never run a B- or C-paced club ride.

It's not a question of "militancy," it's a practical necessity. If I am leading a no-drop B17 ride, that means most riders will expect a specific pace on that day. It's impossible to control the pace properly if I have a bunch of wanna-be's zooming off the front all day long.

I also can't be responsible for someone taking a wrong turn if they are ahead of me by 200 yards. I'm not going to wait for Speedy Gonzales because he went up the road and missed a turn, nor am I going to drag 10 riders all over the region looking for the guy who wanted to ride faster than everyone else. If you go ahead of me without my permission, you're on your own.

Keep in mind the standards are different with rotating pacelines, since the leader is just one of many taking turns. The OP isn't talking about anything remotely like that, though. And again, it's common to let riders climb hills at their own pace and pass the leader temporarily, since it's easy to regroup at the top.

I concur with milkbaby that this policy is only fair when the ride pace is advertised. Which is exactly what our club has done for years, with much success.

Bacciagalupe

Yeah, I'd say it's a problem. Sorry.

If some gal goes blasting off the front and misses a turn, I can't be responsible for her. It's unfair to hold up the rest of the ride waiting for her to find or catch up with the group.

If the group gets splintered because 3-4 people decide that "B17" means "A19," it's going to be very difficult for the leaders to keep track of everyone. You can't stop a bunch of people spread out over half a mile when one person has a mechanical or a medical emergency.

Plus, it's not a race against the leader, it's a club ride. If you wound up signing up for a ride that's below your ability, it's on you to relax and not blow up the group -- much in the same way that if you signed up for a ride that's way above your ability, you may have to pack it up early rather than demand the entire group slow down for you.

Now, I will say if you have a very large group (e.g. 20-30 riders or more), it's going to be extremely difficult to expect everyone to hold to one pace; there's just going to be too much variation in abilities. One option is the club could downplay the role of the leader, and make them more of a supervisory presence. If someone misses a turn, it's on them to find their way back. (In that situation, the club/ride obviously can't have a "pass the leader, off the ride" rule.) What the club I'm in usually does, though, is break up into smaller groups, segregated by pace. Assuming there's a common pit or lunch stop, riders can hop onto faster or slower rides based on their abilities.


I concur that it sounds like the OP was not clear about the type of ride or the pace, and this is probably what caused this particular issue. That said:

I can't require every rider to take a timed test for their pace before they sign up.

Leaders in our club (and hopefully other clubs ) are told to lead rides slower than their capabilities.

I would agree that if the leader goes OTB on rides, they need to reassess their abilities. If I have one or two riders who insist on blasting off the front constantly during a ride, then they are the ones who need to reassess their abilities, and do faster rides. None of that applies if I'm trying to lead at a 17 pace, and a couple of hammerheads decide that isn't fast enough for them.


If you're talking about a large ride where people expect it to get splintered, then yes 2 riders can pair up and watch out for each other.

Rhodabike

+1 One thing that frustrates me is that the "women only" rides done by a local club are strictly for beginners. Some of us are too old and slow to keep up with the regular group rides, but we already know how to fix a flat tire and draft and choose cycling shorts and set up our bikes to fit us...

Myosmith

The reality is that there are so many different styles and levels of riders that there may not be a perfect fit for every individual. Read the advertised descriptions and pace of the ride and pick the one(s) closest to your desired style, then abide by their rules when riding with the group. If you don't like the rules or the pace, then don't ride with that group. Find another group, ride alone, or start your own group. Realize that the advertised pace is usually a mere suggestion and that many B or C no-drop rides are actually faster than advertised and no-drop may mean that they stop occassionally for you to catch up.

One of the local rides I frequent starts with a large group that eventually breaks into two or more smaller groups based on pace. The faster riders can pick their own pace. Even the "slow" group often rides well aboved the advertised pace and I've seen some new riders get discouraged and stop coming, even though the group leaders do a good job of keeping an eye on stragglers. It has to be tough on new riders to see the whole group looking back waiting for them at every stop, especially when the average pace is significantly higher than the advertised pace they were expecting.

banerjek

There are only two ways for a group of people with mixed abilities to stay together. One is if they're at the same fitness level. The other is if they have the same goals (i.e the social component is most important). In the case at hand, neither applied.

Many if not most people ride to improve their fitness. For such riders, that "no chain" feel is a very unpleasant sensation that frustrates them. If they ride 50 miles like that, they'll think they didn't exercise at all and they're right. The only way to overcome that is if the purpose of riding is to hang out and improving is not really an objective. It's a completely different type of ride.

To make this work, my guess is that you need to hand pick the other riders at first (this will result in a much smaller group) and add more as you can. In the meantime, you need to let the others go ahead.

hhnngg1

If anyone goes off the front past the leader, it's known by everyone that they're on their own. That's their prerogative and it's known that if you do this, you're essentially riding yourself off the front of the group and out of the group. If you get lost, get hit by a car, etc, it's not the group leader's responsibility anymore. This is really, really obvious. Any group leader who is Nazi enough to make rules to hold back riders who decide they would rather hammer off the front isn't worth riding with because their ego is too big for the ride.

Everyone also knows that there's a huge variability in the speed of posted group rides and that you really have to sit in a few times to see if it's for you. Again, if you're so strict about pacing on your group ride that you absolutely have to ride the posted 14mph and no faster, no slower, you're ignoring the reality that most folks in your group will have a range of ability from 10-18mph averages and that's that.

To me, a group leader who doesn't let anyone ride off the front, is so strict about holding the posted pace that he'll talk down anyone who's creeping out in front, doesn't deserve to be a leader as they clearly don't understand the reality and diversity of group rides.

I've been with more than a few excellent group leaders. They tend to ride in the middle-back of the group, but sometimes hammer up to the very front and beyond when they sense it's a hammerfest. No egos, no crazy rules. They ride near the posted pace, but again, it can vary as much as 4-5mph (which is a huge jump) depending on who shows up and what the mood fo the ride is.

Bacciagalupe

Yep. That's what our policy makes explicit. You go off the front, you're off the ride, the leader is not responsible for you anymore.

I'm glad we agree on this point.

But no, it's not "obvious" to everyone. When we make it obvious, people are less inclined to take off.


Anyone who constantly blasts off the front ought to be on a faster ride. If the ride says "17," and everyone expects "17," and you want to ride "19," it's not the leader's fault if you're bored.

It's also definitely not an ego thing. I have no illusions whatsoever that there are plenty of riders around who are far, far stronger than I am. Thus, I often let riders pass me on the hills -- because they know to wait at the top. And who is more egotistical -- the leader who takes responsibility for keeping a bunch of people safe, or the rider who enjoys sandbagging a club ride?

Meanwhile, left to their own devices people don't always ride optimally. People tend to bunch up at lights, ride double-file in areas where they should only ride single-file, they don't always properly call out holes or rough road, if they don't know the route they can easily miss turns, they don't know that someone behind them is stuck at a light or keeling over from heat exhaustion. If the group is together, obviously they benefit from drafting off the leader, whose job is to know the route and keep track of everyone; if you're splintered, it's a lot less efficient.


Again: If you have 30 people in one big mass, yes there will be a huge variability.

But if you have 10 people, and the club actually makes an effort to stay close to posted speeds, then you have a lot less variability. Expectations are also more accurate; if I post a B15 ride in my club, no one has a right to expect an 18 pace.

Club size might play a part; a small club that can only run a few rides on a Saturday may have no option but to deal with variability. (Our club is over 2000 riders, I have no idea if that is big or small by club standards.)


That's definitely "not that," and that's not the "reality" for our club.

Because we hold reasonably close to the advertised pace, and probably because we're big enough to offer different speed ranges on busy days, we don't get those huge ranges of ability or expectations.

It sounds to me like your club(s) do not take posted pace seriously. The club's riders don't expect "B18" to mean anything in particular; thus no one pays a lot of attention to the pace. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I for one wouldn't like this. In addition to the problems listed already: If there's a 5mph range in speeds, I could show up for a ride one week and feel unchallenged; then show up for the same ride with the same leader the next week, and get spit out the back.

In our club, it's far from perfect, but "B18" pretty much means "B18." Pace listings are actually meaningful, in no small part because the leaders make it meaningful.

halfspeed

I disagree with the contention that the ride was too hard for the intended audience. There are lots of 12-13mph riders who are perfectly capable of a 50 mile ride with some hills as long as there are some rest stops.

OP: My suggestion is NOT to post the ride to "the world". Use your successful ride to talk to people about the ride and develop an email list. Invite just a few people and once you've got a core group, you can think about trying to expand it. It'll take a while and you'll need to do some networking, but eventually you'll get what you want.

gregf83 

Kudos for organizing and setting up a ride for your club. I find people who whine and ***** about a particular set of rules seldom put in the effort to organize their own rides.

That said, I have a question about your nomenclature for rides. What does B18 mean? Is that intended to indicate the average speed you end up at or is that a hard cap on the speed of the ride? In our area we almost always have wind so speeds tend to vary significantly over the course of a ride even if people are putting out a roughly constant effort.

DGlenday

Someone in my area had the same problem - and fixed it this way:

No cue-sheets, and no prior description of where the ride is going. Just a general description along the lines of '30 miles at approx 16mph along scenic, rolling terrain'.

Then he sets a complicated route with lots of turns.

Forces the group to stay together.

Bacciagalupe

The club suggests prospective riders to do 4 laps around Central Park, check a chart to figure out your speed, and try a ride slower than that the first time or two out. It's not perfect, because the park barely has any hills, but it gives people a rough idea where to start.

At leader training sessions, n00b leaders are reminded that "18" doesn't mean "do 18 at all times." If you're facing a headwind or climbing, you reduce speed appropriately. Most people go by feel; one thing I've tried is to keep my heart rate around the same spot.

gregf83 

Sounds like a good idea.

hhnngg1

Agree. Even if you post a '15mph average', what is really 15mph? With a stiffheadwind, that can be 13mph. WIth a draft/paceline, even at the rookie beginner level, someone who can only do 13mph on their own can easily hold 15 in a group. THrow in terrain, and who the heck knows what 15mph average is until they download the ride data afterwards on the Garmin.

Bacciagalupe seems to be stuck on trying to be that leader who 'sticks to his rules', but in reality, with the big variance in the conditions, terrain, mood of the group, and ability of the overall riders in a decent sized group, you're just trying to overapply your written rule to a much more fluid reality. The group leader needs to be able to roll with these variances. And yes, this includes the reality that if everyone who shows up at this group wants to ride a fair bit faster than the posted speed, he might be on his own unless he's made prior arrangements with other riders to specifically ride together.

Bacciagalupe

Exactly. Read what I wrote -- leaders are supposed to keep those factors in mind. We're tuning the rides to an ability level, not a cyclometer average.

When you're in a paceline, the goal is for everyone to take a turn and maintain a consistent speed. Do headwinds, slight variations in terrain, and variations in rider abilities make this impossible? Are pacelines "fascist?"

I.e. the goal is to actually work as a unit, just at a less technical level than with a paceline. It's not about ego, it's about collaboration and keeping everyone together. It works well, and riders like it because they have a good idea of what they're in for.


No, we really aren't.

It's not like I'm sitting on the front shouting "respect my authoritah!" and constantly kicking people off my rides. In fact, I've never had to remind anyone not to go off the front. Riders know the rules and they generally know what to expect.

The system works, because the leaders keep the rides close to the advertised pace, so the riders know what to expect, so you get less variation in ability. It's a self-reinforcing system, and the closer you stick to it, the better it works.

The problem isn't that we are "doing it wrong." The problem is that you're so accustomed to the way your club(s) do it that you can't imagine a club working any other way.

hhnngg1

I've ridden in plenty of clubs and groups. Likely more than you, having lived in 4 separate cities on East and West coast. I'm well versed with how group rides work.

The goal is not necessarily to work as a unit, contrary to what you say. Pacelines, yes, but most casual group rides, there's mild drafting only. Certainly no organized rotation and pace rules for for beginner-early intermediate rides. (Yes, I've ridden with plenty of competitive roadie rides with pacelines that rotate rigidly and where you'll instantly get yelled at if you break the pattern.) Then again, I'm not surprised that you're bringing up pacelines for beginner/early intermediate riders given your other views on how you run your group ride.

I still can't believe nobody goes off the front on your rides as well. It's pretty common for one or two riders out of a group of 15 will inevitably find the pace too slow and go off the front - that's just statistics.

Savagewolf

Riders of a "C" level aren't going to be doing 50 mile rides that often. 15-20 mile rides are more in line with what a C level ride should be doing. C level rides in general should stay away from hills as much as possible as well.

As a ride leader, you are going to have to learn to accept that cyclists are going to ride how they want. It's a common trait that people are going to go as fast or slow as they want. It's not a lot of fun for stronger riders to keep waiting for others. It may not be the politest thing to do, but I think you'd have to expect that eventually they are going to ride away if you aren't keeping up.

Suggestions: For more complicated or longer routes, give them a cue sheet. During advertisement for the ride, make it easily known that riders are expected to cycle 15mph (or whatever your goal speed) and to slow down to wait for others. Repeat this during the ride start that it is a "C" level ride, but do it politely. Get faster or thick skin because cyclists will ride at their own pace, and that's often faster than the ride leader's idea of a good pace.