Please help, done something stupid....
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Please help, done something stupid....
Hi Bike Forums folks,
I recently got my first set of better wheels, a used set of Reynolds Alta Aero Comps to replace the stock Alex's on my Allez. When I swapped my cassette over from the stock wheels (first time trying to do this) I couldn't get it to fit on the Reynolds with the innermost (behind the largest cog) spacer, the metal one. With the spacer in place the smallest cog wouldn't fit on the splines at all and the lockring couldn't reach the threads. Everything seemed to fit fine without the spacer so I just left it off.
Unfortunately, the Reynolds rear wheel has been making random pinging noises the whole time, in the saddle and out, under heavy load and lightly spinning, and not with any regularity really. I can feel the noise in my feet, so it could be pedals, cranks or BB, but it never did it before the new wheels. The only guess I have is that the spokes have worn little grooves into each other where they cross over and are making noise as they slip in and out of those grooves. But the chain has also been randomly skipping, again under load and not, which also started with the new wheels.
I took it to the shop and they thought the same thing about the pinging and the spokes. They also said that the spacer didn't fit on the Reynolds wheel, and that it didn't need it. They gave the bike an overall thumbs up, chain not very stretched and teeth not very worn, and they thought that the chain slipping could be due to a faulty pawl in the freehub. They said there was nothing functionally wrong at all, but I just can't deal with the noise and slipping, I'm embarassed to even show up for my usual group rides now. So I decided to just bite the bullet and get some new (actually new) wheels, probably Neuvations.
So here's where things get weird and my current problem begins. I wanted to swap the cassette back to my original Alex rear wheeel just to make sure that all of the problems lie with the Reynolds rear wheel before I buy a new wheelset. Well, when I went to install the cassette I couldn't get the final small cog to fit on the splines or the lockring to reach the threads, exactly the same thing that happened with the Reynolds! Now, I have only removed one cassette in my life, and it was this cassette with this spacer from this wheel, so somehow it must be able to fit!
So please folks, I need some advice, can anyone tell me how to make this thing fit correctly? Now I'm wondering if the spacer really should have fit on the Reynolds and maybe that was the real source of the problems, but I'll worry about that next. Much thanks in advance for any wisdom and experience all of you can share with me, I really appreciate it.
I recently got my first set of better wheels, a used set of Reynolds Alta Aero Comps to replace the stock Alex's on my Allez. When I swapped my cassette over from the stock wheels (first time trying to do this) I couldn't get it to fit on the Reynolds with the innermost (behind the largest cog) spacer, the metal one. With the spacer in place the smallest cog wouldn't fit on the splines at all and the lockring couldn't reach the threads. Everything seemed to fit fine without the spacer so I just left it off.
Unfortunately, the Reynolds rear wheel has been making random pinging noises the whole time, in the saddle and out, under heavy load and lightly spinning, and not with any regularity really. I can feel the noise in my feet, so it could be pedals, cranks or BB, but it never did it before the new wheels. The only guess I have is that the spokes have worn little grooves into each other where they cross over and are making noise as they slip in and out of those grooves. But the chain has also been randomly skipping, again under load and not, which also started with the new wheels.
I took it to the shop and they thought the same thing about the pinging and the spokes. They also said that the spacer didn't fit on the Reynolds wheel, and that it didn't need it. They gave the bike an overall thumbs up, chain not very stretched and teeth not very worn, and they thought that the chain slipping could be due to a faulty pawl in the freehub. They said there was nothing functionally wrong at all, but I just can't deal with the noise and slipping, I'm embarassed to even show up for my usual group rides now. So I decided to just bite the bullet and get some new (actually new) wheels, probably Neuvations.
So here's where things get weird and my current problem begins. I wanted to swap the cassette back to my original Alex rear wheeel just to make sure that all of the problems lie with the Reynolds rear wheel before I buy a new wheelset. Well, when I went to install the cassette I couldn't get the final small cog to fit on the splines or the lockring to reach the threads, exactly the same thing that happened with the Reynolds! Now, I have only removed one cassette in my life, and it was this cassette with this spacer from this wheel, so somehow it must be able to fit!
So please folks, I need some advice, can anyone tell me how to make this thing fit correctly? Now I'm wondering if the spacer really should have fit on the Reynolds and maybe that was the real source of the problems, but I'll worry about that next. Much thanks in advance for any wisdom and experience all of you can share with me, I really appreciate it.
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The head of the lock ring does have some flex to it. When I changed wheels, I really had to push the center of the lockring in to get it started....although all my cogs fit on.
Without the spacer, it screwed on "perfectly", but with the spacer (which was needed), I could just barely feel the threads start to engage without putting any pressure on it. I had to push hard and turn to get it to engage fully.
If it's not even close to engaging, then something else is wrong, but I can't imagine what it could possibly be if what you say is correct.
Without the spacer, it screwed on "perfectly", but with the spacer (which was needed), I could just barely feel the threads start to engage without putting any pressure on it. I had to push hard and turn to get it to engage fully.
If it's not even close to engaging, then something else is wrong, but I can't imagine what it could possibly be if what you say is correct.
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I've made a photobucket album with some pictures, here's the link: https://s1087.photobucket.com/albums/...ing%20Problem/
Here's a few pics, this is the cassette on the freehub without the final cog and lockring. I know it's hard to see the small detail, but the with the second-to-last cog on as shown in the pictures there is not enough length left on the splines to put the final cog on, they don't extend past the surface of the cog that's on there. These shots are with the innermost spacer on, which is exactly how it was when I took it off. This is all original equipment that came with the bike, it's the exact spacer and cassette that came off of this exact wheel, so somehow this must fit back on here.
Here's a few pics, this is the cassette on the freehub without the final cog and lockring. I know it's hard to see the small detail, but the with the second-to-last cog on as shown in the pictures there is not enough length left on the splines to put the final cog on, they don't extend past the surface of the cog that's on there. These shots are with the innermost spacer on, which is exactly how it was when I took it off. This is all original equipment that came with the bike, it's the exact spacer and cassette that came off of this exact wheel, so somehow this must fit back on here.
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I can imagine your confusion. Any chance you have a caliper around to measure up the stack and compare it to the hub? Are you sure the spacer isn't getting hung up and everything is seated properly?
I'm sure your LBS can straighten it out for you otherwise.
I'm sure your LBS can straighten it out for you otherwise.
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Hehe, no worries, "Dork Disc" removed...
So I just got back from the LBS and their verdict was that it doesn't need the spacer as without it the cassette tightens down fine and has no play or wobble at all. I'm still concerned as it certainly fit on there originally, but they were adamant that as long as the cassette is tight everything is fine. Gotta wait until after work to go for a ride and see if anything comes up, but I'm still not very confident that it's right...
So I just got back from the LBS and their verdict was that it doesn't need the spacer as without it the cassette tightens down fine and has no play or wobble at all. I'm still concerned as it certainly fit on there originally, but they were adamant that as long as the cassette is tight everything is fine. Gotta wait until after work to go for a ride and see if anything comes up, but I'm still not very confident that it's right...
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And no, unfortunately I don't have a caliper around. And I'm pretty sure the spacer isn't getting hung up, I took everything off and back on several times trying to make it fit and did plenty of wiggling with no result. The freehub body has no gouges or anything like that would catch the spacer, it slides on with no resistance.
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Time to do what the rest of have all done at one point or another:
Take it to your mechanic and admit he's smarter than you.
If he ends up putting it on without the spacer, you may want to run that dork disc for a while yet though....just in case. That is a pretty important 1mm you are dealing with.
Take it to your mechanic and admit he's smarter than you.
If he ends up putting it on without the spacer, you may want to run that dork disc for a while yet though....just in case. That is a pretty important 1mm you are dealing with.
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Hehe, no worries, "Dork Disc" removed...
So I just got back from the LBS and their verdict was that it doesn't need the spacer as without it the cassette tightens down fine and has no play or wobble at all. I'm still concerned as it certainly fit on there originally, but they were adamant that as long as the cassette is tight everything is fine. Gotta wait until after work to go for a ride and see if anything comes up, but I'm still not very confident that it's right...
So I just got back from the LBS and their verdict was that it doesn't need the spacer as without it the cassette tightens down fine and has no play or wobble at all. I'm still concerned as it certainly fit on there originally, but they were adamant that as long as the cassette is tight everything is fine. Gotta wait until after work to go for a ride and see if anything comes up, but I'm still not very confident that it's right...
Something isn't right or something else changed. Freehubs don't go from needing a 1mm spacer to not needing it.
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I haven't made it home yet to go for a ride on it. The LBS is next to my office so I just brought the wheel and cassette with me and went by on my lunch break. I'll be able to go for a test ride in a couple hours.
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English Pointer...
Yeah yeah, I know. When I saw the pictures I almost cleaned them off and took new ones but decided I was being too OCD.
Dude, I love my dog but the hair, it's always EVERYWHERE.... And she's a black and white dog, so no matter what color something is at least half the hair is visible on it. Sucks, but short of getting rid of my dog or spending an insane amount of time trying to constantly clean all of her hair there's not much to do. I live in Memphis and it's been super hot, so the dog's gonna either shed or fall out from heat stroke, and for the same reason she can't stay outside all day.
Honestly I'm amazed you were the first to mention it, I thought I'd catch flak for the hair on the cogs before I actually got any real advice!
Yeah yeah, I know. When I saw the pictures I almost cleaned them off and took new ones but decided I was being too OCD.
Dude, I love my dog but the hair, it's always EVERYWHERE.... And she's a black and white dog, so no matter what color something is at least half the hair is visible on it. Sucks, but short of getting rid of my dog or spending an insane amount of time trying to constantly clean all of her hair there's not much to do. I live in Memphis and it's been super hot, so the dog's gonna either shed or fall out from heat stroke, and for the same reason she can't stay outside all day.
Honestly I'm amazed you were the first to mention it, I thought I'd catch flak for the hair on the cogs before I actually got any real advice!
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Is your spacer flat or is it grooved, if it's grooved, flip it. Or maybe one of the cog spacers are bent.
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Spacer is not grooved that I can see or feel, just smooth and flat, no notches or anything at all. I'll double check all of the cogs and cog spacers when I get home and let you know, but I don't think any of them are bent.
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Tightened down the cassette on my original Alex rear wheel without using the spacer and went for a ride. No sounds, no skipping, no problems. Still have no idea why it wouldn't fit back on with the spacer but I guess all is well for the moment, although the bike does look a bit goofy with mismatched wheels. The front wheel of the Alex set has a funky bearing and feels awful, but using the Alex rear and Reynolds front I end up with two properly functioning wheels. Probably still get a set of wheels, but at least now I can ride without sounding like a wreck waiting to happen. Thanks for the help folks, I appreciate it.
Here's a pic of the mismatched wheel situation, it's not so awful I guess...
Here's a pic of the mismatched wheel situation, it's not so awful I guess...
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Just a thought but are you sure you've put the cogs on right way out? On some sets one or more of the cogs ( probably 4th 5th 6th ) has a little groove that seats spacers between the cogs. If you have them flipped so the spacer(s) aren't seated then the cogs will stack a fraction higher.
edit to add - also "ping" sound is probably spokes -might consider getting rear re-laced if you're otherwise happy with the rim rather than buy a whole new wheel set
edit to add - also "ping" sound is probably spokes -might consider getting rear re-laced if you're otherwise happy with the rim rather than buy a whole new wheel set
Last edited by Nbob; 09-12-12 at 12:00 AM. Reason: addition
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I will check the cog spacers again to be sure but I think they are stacked correctly.
And yes, as far as I can tell the noise was from the crossed spokes on the Reynolds. I was wondering about getting them relaced, but that doesn't explain the chain skipping that was happening with them on. The shop said the chain and teeth don't show much wear, they thought the skipping could be due to a faulty pawl in the rear hub. Should I try to have the rear relaxed anyway, and what's generally the cost for that? I'm still leaning towards new wheels though, I only paid $150 for the Reynolds with tubes and gatorskins included so it's not that awful of a hit.
And yes, as far as I can tell the noise was from the crossed spokes on the Reynolds. I was wondering about getting them relaced, but that doesn't explain the chain skipping that was happening with them on. The shop said the chain and teeth don't show much wear, they thought the skipping could be due to a faulty pawl in the rear hub. Should I try to have the rear relaxed anyway, and what's generally the cost for that? I'm still leaning towards new wheels though, I only paid $150 for the Reynolds with tubes and gatorskins included so it's not that awful of a hit.
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How much room do you have between the chain and spokes when in the largest cog without the spacer?
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I have this issue with some Zipps. Spokes make a pinging sound when on the pedals, from a stop etc...can't hear it once going and wind is blowing. I'm assuming the cxrays are rubbing/flexy as the torque is applied on the cranks and rotation force applied to the rear cog. Then the tension of the spokes is maybe not high enough to prevent the rim/hub from deflecting rotationally if you follow what I'm saying. Or flex in the wheel/hub slacking the spokes, causing the pinging.
Also, some hubs you can't run a spacer. As long as your RD or chain isn't hitting the spokes under load on the big ring in the rear and small on the front, I wouldn't worry about it. If that is what it takes to get the cassette nut on properly, so be it. Otherwise, it could just be a tolerance/design issue and it won't work properly that cassette/rear hub/dropout setup.
You have different tolerances between the dropouts, hub, cassette etc...sometimes, they just don't all lineup properly and cause issues.
Also, some hubs you can't run a spacer. As long as your RD or chain isn't hitting the spokes under load on the big ring in the rear and small on the front, I wouldn't worry about it. If that is what it takes to get the cassette nut on properly, so be it. Otherwise, it could just be a tolerance/design issue and it won't work properly that cassette/rear hub/dropout setup.
You have different tolerances between the dropouts, hub, cassette etc...sometimes, they just don't all lineup properly and cause issues.
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Either do it yourself or take it to the shop and have them disassemble and inspect the free hub on your Reynolds. I have the same wheels (which I love - tough, light, handle well in wind). I took apart the freehub a couple of years ago just to see if I could quiet it down, and it was easy to disassemble and put back together, really a beginner-level DIY. But you should have a diagram and/or instructions. I believe I got mine from the Reynolds website somewhere, or you could email them and tell them the model of your wheel, and they'd probably send you instructions.
If the noise is indeed coming from the freehub, it might be fixable by cleaning and re-lubing the pawls (again, very easy w/ instructions). Those are very nice wheels and you might have an easy fix.
If the noise is indeed coming from the freehub, it might be fixable by cleaning and re-lubing the pawls (again, very easy w/ instructions). Those are very nice wheels and you might have an easy fix.