I quite liked Patzcuaro when I visited years ago, but I can't understand this expat attitude to "cheap" foreign places. Does it not bother you to be living the high life financed by the poverty around you? Are you really so cold? I know I would find it difficult putting on my expensive kit and going out on my expensive bike worth many times more than the annual incomes of the average Mexican living a meagre economic existence, never mind riding past the impoverished Indian families begging in the streets.

The spectacle of first-world retirees living in grand style in third-world locales is an ugly one. It's a kick in the face to the people living there. And spare me the justifications, because we've heard them all.

Well, that's true. Still a great place to ride from, though. And it isn't actually compulsory for all residents to be blood dopers...

Caledon, eh? Got any routes to share?

I'm in Stratford. My one complaint about southern Ontario is the relentlessly efficient road grid that doesn't allow for too many meandering curves. I view New England with envy in that regard.

Everyone's going to tell you that where they live is best, but most of them are wrong, because only a select few of us live in North San Diego County. (Though Portland has it all over us, Cycling-Community- and Sales-Tax-wise, but they need the discount because their weather su-u-u-u-u-u-u-ucks by comparison. No offense, Portland homies--I love visiting your town!)

I'll get hooted off the forum, but I suggest: Louisville, KY.

Why?

1. Large and active cycling community. Between Louisville and southern Indiana there are at least three or four club rides daily.

2. Decent MTB. It ain't Colorado, but KyMBA is active and the trails are pretty well kept.

3. Louisville Loop. I was just on it today. When completed, it will be 100 miles long and encircle the city. It will be the Mother of All MUPs.

4. From my suburban home I can cycle to Banjo country in an hour. I'm rarely hassled by rednecks. Most are fine if you stay out of their way. I also get professional courtesy.

5. Kentucky Center for the Arts and stuff.

6. Democrat major and congressman if that sort of thing is important to you.

7. The state is solvent. I'd never move to a state on the verge of bankruptcy, no matter how nice it is.

8. Reasonable cost of living. Housing is affordable.

I rode through Kentucky and I spent a couple days in Louisville. The people in Louisville were great, the city is clean and seemed bike-friendly, but on the back roads I had stuff thrown at me every day. If the punks weren't throwing bottles or cans they were spitting and screaming at us.

That is a very interesting perspective. Makes sense.

Never had anything thrown at me. Been yelled at a couple of times but it didn't hurt.

That may seem like a lot ... for American standards ... but imagine how many there are between Kluisbergen, Zottegem, Geraardsbergen and Ninove ... and I happen to live right in the middle between those.
It's actually not that much fun for me ... since I ride around working all day and have to watch these guys have fun all the time ;)

Yeah, but if you live there you have to speak Belgiumese, which is even harder than Austrian. Jongen, ich bin Joo.

Actually, it doesn't. In the first place, the fact that one can cycle year-round doesn't mean one will. In the second place, the idea that "not cycling for a few months is good for you" is nonsense. It certainly makes sense to have an easier period during the year, it may make sense to have a short time off the bike altogether, but to spend months at a time not cycling merely means you lose far more fitness than you need, and makes it more difficult to build on past performance.

I would go with Monterey area of California, but the cost of living would be rough. I have cycled all over southeast including a ton of rural roads, and I always laugh when I hear from someone that visited once and had bottles thrown at them and rednecks hanging out of trucks yelling at them the whole time. I would guess I have done a few thousand rides on rural roads, and I have probably been yelled at maybe 5 times and had only once did someone throw something at me and that was a plastic bottle. That being said, I will definitely admit drivers are more intolerant here than cycling friendly areas.

Wow, Rousseau! Obviously, you are very happy living in your pretty neck of the woods. I suspect there is an element of xenophobia in such a narrow view of the world: so long as you don't see an ounce of poverty around you, the rest of the world is a happy place to live in.

There are other activities besides cycling that will allow you to maintain fitness. Cross country skiing, for example, is an equally, if not more, demanding aerobic sport. Taking a couple months off doesn't have to mean sitting on the couch.

I don't understand this attitude at all. I would think the retirees provide a net benefit to the locals.

So.. I assume that you do not have anything that was made by poor people in a poor country with poor working conditions, because that is the same principle, people with money taking advantage of a good, or service that is significantly cheaper due to international trade. (when you go to a different country, what you consume, purchase, or services you use there can be considered an import to your country)

The point is, that people in those poor places where the "evil" retirees live, are better off because of the retirees living there. The retirees arrival increases the demand for goods and services, which in turn, raises prices and or decreases producer surplus.

IF, and only if you had a general understanding of economics, you wouldnt say that retirees moving to a poor place, hurt the community..

/rant

Total load of BS.

I have a narrow view of the world? What on earth are you talking about? I pointed out that it takes a callous person to exult in the cheapness of a locale while flaunting their wealth in the face of poverty. How is this possibly contentious?

Feeling somewhat satisfied that there is no dire poverty in the society one lives and works in day-to-day suggests a sense of solidarity with your immediate fellow human beings. It's not so bad that I'm wearing a $100-pair of bibs because just about anyone in the city where I live could afford them if they really wanted them. It doesn't represent a whole month of their wages. My flitting around the countryside on my bike for exercise isn't an affront to my neighbours because it's an option that is generally open to them.

There isn't a yawning economic gap between them and me, which is a vital thing for a community. But this is something that Americans either don't comprehend or don't tend to find very important.

I do try to buy local goods as much as possible. But obviously, so much of what we buy these days is made in China. While I wouldn't want to work in a Chinese factory, and indeed agree with the numerous criticisms made about them, Chinese factory workers aren't "poor" in any meaningful sense of the word. By contrast, maids, cleaners, food preparation employees and others working in the service economy catering to retirees in developing countries make up the vast majority of those who "benefit" from the arrival of expats from rich countries, and you'll notice that these places don't get richer, because if they did the retirees would stop flocking to them.

Retirees moving en masse to poor countries might produce more jobs cleaning floors, but they do hurt them economically in an indirect way because meaningful economic activity is usually curtailed in lieu of catering to the tourist or retiree trade. Tourist hotspots in developing countries are usually one-trick ponies where the locals wait or dance on the tables. Why should my purchasing power dwarf that of the person standing next to me on the sidewalk? If it doesn't bother you as you live in places like Patzcuaro (or, indeed, wherever you live) then you have a heart of stone and a broken moral compass.

I grew up in San Francisco and lived out in the avenues from 1960 to 77. I grew up in the days when we would watch movies like this in school and every day they would test the bomb siren.

Every October people would wake up one morning and begin running for shelter when they looked up at the sky, not realizing that the sun had actually burned through the perpetual fog and the bright thing in the sky wasn't a Russian nuke.

Yeah...grey...miserable...was like this yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before..................
http://www.snortingbullphoto.com/pho...-V6jhcH2-L.jpg

P & R. Stick to the weather or move the discussion.

Your webcam is broken.

I discovered that when I moved to Australia.

I went from having a spring/summer/autumn cycling season where I cycled a lot, and then I backed off during the winter and did other things ... to a place where I could cycle the same amount year round. And I found that very difficult. I thought I would love being able to cycle year round, and I do enjoy not having a Canadian winter to deal with, but I feel almost obliged to cycle intensely year round instead of taking a break like I used to. It's hard to explain ... and hard to deal with.

I cycle all year long in Southern California but I do ride a little less in the hottest months of the summer. I like it a lot.

I think Holland counts as one of the best places to live as a cyclist. The primary reason for this would be safety.

The infrastructure as a whole is very cyclist friendly, with dedicated cycling paths, and never having to share the road with cars that go over 50 km/h. Also, because cycling is such a common and big thing, drivers learn to take them into account. The many cycling roads are well-maintained, and if you want to go somewhere by bike, there are usually a LOT of options to get there using primarily dedicated cycling roads/lanes.

The bad thing I guess is that Holland is almost completely flat. There are few hills over here, and many cyclists (myself included) travel to neighboring countries for this kind of an experience (for me, the nearest capital of a neighboring country is only 90 km away, the border only 40).

The sights are less impressive than some countries I have been in, but overall, in my opinion, still pretty good. Cities are relatively small, so even if you live in them, it usually takes only 15 minutes or so to get out into a nicer cycling area.