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What kind of break off retail can I expect on a new Evo?

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What kind of break off retail can I expect on a new Evo?

Old 02-13-13, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hamster
I think it's like "invoice" vs "MSRP" for a car. At first, manufacturers only published MSRPs. But everyone knew that cars sold every day for less than MSRP and that made MSRP meaningless. So customers started to wonder about the true cost of the car for the dealer. Manufacturers responded by creating and leaking "second line of defense" sets of numbers called invoices, which _still_ don't represent what the car really costs to the dealer, but satisfy the data-hungry customer's need for numbers.

So, for DA SS Evo, there's web site MSRP of 7990, and there's an internal invoice of 7200, and, for all we know, the dealer might be really getting them for 4000 or 5000, but no one will tell you that last number, and the dealer won't sell it to you for 5000 as long as it can expect to find customers in the 7000 range.
I think you are right about this.
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Old 02-13-13, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by surgeonstone
Not my point. Good bike shops are a rarity today. Personally I would rather pay asking price and become a loyal and valuable customer. As noted above, margins are razor thin on bikes at the LBS level. I once walked into a nice specialized dealer and saw a rain jacket for 125. Asked about it and the owner said a few things and without my asking took 20 % off. I responded , no , I'll pay the advertised price. The guy took my hand, shook it and said "you sir, are a gentleman, thank you so much for understanding." We need good bike shops. Lets keep them in business.
That's called charity. Nothing wrong with charity but realize not everyone is in a position to be charitable or feels they'd rather give elsewhere. I like my LBS and I'm happy to support them with repeat business but I also appreciate the fact that they give me a price break so that I can afford to keep buying stuff. It's a win-win plus I drive business to them whenever I can.
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Old 02-13-13, 03:32 PM
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This is a sidenote as you seem set on this model: I love cycling and cycling gear and I'm not destitute, but I can't comprehend walking into a bike shop and dropping seven grand on an off-the-shelf bike. Lots of interesting options out there at this price range.
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Old 02-13-13, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by surgeonstone
Not my point. Good bike shops are a rarity today. Personally I would rather pay asking price and become a loyal and valuable customer. As noted above, margins are razor thin on bikes at the LBS level. I once walked into a nice specialized dealer and saw a rain jacket for 125. Asked about it and the owner said a few things and without my asking took 20 % off. I responded , no , I'll pay the advertised price. The guy took my hand, shook it and said "you sir, are a gentleman, thank you so much for understanding." We need good bike shops. Lets keep them in business.
I totally agree with this, and carry it to all the niche type stores. At one point in buying kayaks, I was trading one boat for another. The asst manager wasn't familiar with the boat I was trading in, and uncomfortably offered me $375 for it. I asked her if she would be more comfortable with $325. She was stunned, and we worked out a nice deal. My wife later told me I was a fool, but we've gotten 6 boats from the place, and they are in business when I need them.
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Old 02-14-13, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
I totally agree with this, and carry it to all the niche type stores. At one point in buying kayaks, I was trading one boat for another. The asst manager wasn't familiar with the boat I was trading in, and uncomfortably offered me $375 for it. I asked her if she would be more comfortable with $325. She was stunned, and we worked out a nice deal. My wife later told me I was a fool, but we've gotten 6 boats from the place, and they are in business when I need them.
Did you pay also pay over what was asked for the other 5? If so, I'd have to agree with your wife.
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Old 02-14-13, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by whitemax
Did you pay also pay over what was asked for the other 5? If so, I'd have to agree with your wife.
No, and ultimately, I only paid $300 for the boat I traded for $325, so my compromise was still a win.

But I am not to concerned about you thinking me a fool, as you are contemplating buying a $7000 bike, which is arguably at least $5000 of waste.
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Old 02-14-13, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
No, and ultimately, I only paid $300 for the boat I traded for $325, so my compromise was still a win.

But I am not to concerned about you thinking me a fool, as you are contemplating buying a $7000 bike, which is arguably at least $5000 of waste.
So cyclists that spend 7k are foolish? Must be a lot of fools out there because I see a lot of em. However, I don't believe I've ever come across one who agreed to pay more than a merchant was asking for something, be it a bike, a shirt, or a loaf of bread. By your logic, buying a car with adds on like stereo, leather seats etc. is foolish given a stripped down model gets one from point A to B. Would you pay a car dealer more than you had to because you are concerned about keeping it in business?
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Old 02-14-13, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by whitemax
So cyclists that spend 7k are foolish? Must be a lot of fools out there because I see a lot of em. However, I don't believe I've ever come across one who agreed to pay more than a merchant was asking for something, be it a bike, a shirt, or a loaf of bread. By your logic, buying a car with adds on like stereo, leather seats etc. is foolish given a stripped down model gets one from point A to B. Would you pay a car dealer more than you had to because you are concerned about keeping it in business?
I really didn't mean to start an argument, was only giving a comment supporting what I do to support a very specialized niche business that I want to see prosper.

The kayak shop in question is a 2 hr drive from my house, because no one locally offers their level of service.

Car dealers are a dime a dozen, so no I do not do anything to support them. But yes, all the amenities you mentioned are waste, by the strict definition.

As to the number of fools buying $7k bikes, the recession was caused by people buying things they didn't need with money they didn't have. I am not saying this is your case, only that few seem to discriminate honestly between "want" and "need".
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Old 02-14-13, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
I really didn't mean to start an argument, was only giving a comment supporting what I do to support a very specialized niche business that I want to see prosper.

The kayak shop in question is a 2 hr drive from my house, because no one locally offers their level of service.

Car dealers are a dime a dozen, so no I do not do anything to support them. But yes, all the amenities you mentioned are waste, by the strict definition.

As to the number of fools buying $7k bikes, the recession was caused by people buying things they didn't need with money they didn't have. I am not saying this is your case, only that few seem to discriminate honestly between "want" and "need".
I get that you want to support the shop that you buy your kayaks from. I think this whole thing kind of started from an earlier post where someone suggested that bike margins are very thin and that a customer should just pay whatever is asked. I disagree with that but that is just my opinion. A bike shop is a business, must compete as any other does, and accordingly, must come up with a business model that appeals to the customers they are trying to reach while also being able to support themselves. They either do so or have to close doors. However, and again this is just my feeling about it, I have my own affairs to run which is independent of any merchant I do business with. I have to manage them correctly or I'm out of the house. Car dealers may be a dime a dozen but they go out of business all the time. And...I'd be extremely surprised to find out that those that purchased a 7k bike had anything whatsoever to do with the recession, i.e. not the ilk that are buying things with credit cards they can't pay off.
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Old 02-14-13, 02:09 PM
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If they're ordering the bike for you, then it's also easy profit for the store. It's not sitting on the floor, they get product you pay, they don't have money tied up in product that sits on the sales floor for months (wrong color, wrong size, or whatever other reason would prevent someone from buying).

On the other hand, sometimes the previous year's stock gets incentives from the manufacturer. When I purchased a Cannondale several years ago, the manufacturer was discounting leftover stock. I got a small break on the price, by dealer made money.
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Old 02-14-13, 03:53 PM
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Whitemax, I didn't mean to be contrary, or argue at all. Was only acknowledging Stone's point. I hope you get a great deal on your bike.
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Old 02-14-13, 09:05 PM
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Its wrong to compare a LBS with auto dealers. The business models are completely different. LBS do make slim margins on bikes and 36% is slim compared to similar commodities. There are lots of costs the store needs to cover in that margin.

One thing I learned is businesses need to make a reasonable rate of return for their investment or they either go under, decrease service and/or stock, or hang on barely. I personally prefer having good LBSs around and am willing to pay what they are asking. If its a sale and something I need, great. Those sales encourage me to stop in and look. But I wouldn't ask a discount any more from them than I would from buying a suit or shoes at the local Nordstroms.

I value having good LBS and do my best to keep them around.
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Old 02-14-13, 09:19 PM
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+1 well said.
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Old 02-14-13, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by surgeonstone
I once walked into a nice specialized dealer and saw a rain jacket for 125. Asked about it and the owner said a few things and without my asking took 20 % off. I responded , no , I'll pay the advertised price. The guy took my hand, shook it and said "you sir, are a gentleman, thank you so much for understanding."
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Here's what he was thinking.
"You sir, are a sucker. Thank you so much for your donation."
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Old 02-14-13, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by whitemax
So cyclists that spend 7k are foolish? Must be a lot of fools out there because I see a lot of em. However, I don't believe I've ever come across one who agreed to pay more than a merchant was asking for something, be it a bike, a shirt, or a loaf of bread. By your logic, buying a car with adds on like stereo, leather seats etc. is foolish given a stripped down model gets one from point A to B. Would you pay a car dealer more than you had to because you are concerned about keeping it in business?
The world is full of fools and his point is a good one, the difference in riding quality between a good 2000 dollar bike and a 7000 dollar bike is not enormous. Between a 4000 dollar bike and a 7000 dollar bike nonexistent.
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Old 02-14-13, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by whitemax
So cyclists that spend 7k are foolish? Must be a lot of fools out there because I see a lot of em. However, I don't believe I've ever come across one who agreed to pay more than a merchant was asking for something, be it a bike, a shirt, or a loaf of bread. By your logic, buying a car with adds on like stereo, leather seats etc. is foolish given a stripped down model gets one from point A to B. Would you pay a car dealer more than you had to because you are concerned about keeping it in business?
You just came across one as evidenced in my post above. Pay attention.
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Old 02-14-13, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rebel1916
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Here's what he was thinking.
"You sir, are a sucker. Thank you so much for your donation."
I can guarantee 100 % that that was the furthest thing from his mind.
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Old 02-14-13, 09:46 PM
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Car dealers get no love
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Old 02-15-13, 01:07 AM
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I am also a small business owner and a consumer.

As had been alluded to in a lot of posts by fellow small business operators, the final margins are low, in the single digit percentages, and probably in the low single digit percentages, if you really took into account all indirect expenses such as taxes and fees, insurance, inventory finance costs, employee 401ks, health care benefits, long term and short depreciation, and losses not covered by insurance, good will write-downs, etc.

With that being said, I fully appreciate that we all face these financial pressures - you, me, the bike store operator, and all.

I will always ask for the best deal from my LBS but will query back if the price seems high or low - and then pay the asking price if the response seems reasonable.

I will try to buy at the beginning of the season, when the inventory finance costs are the lowest, and will also try to buy at the end-of-season clearance sales, when the bike store is taking a loss but needs the capital to finance next season's inventory.

Special order, cash-paid, and pre-paid items will be generally offered at the best discount by my LBS because we have developed a good relationship.

And, this is the key - try to develop a good relationship. Biking is my hobby and spending on biking stuff is an indulgence - I want honest opinions, enthusiasm, and good service - and, I am willing to pay a slight premium for this service and relationship. Please remember that the additional 5% discount probably represents an almost a 50% reduction in your bike retailers final profit margin and it is his/her profession.

Mark
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Old 02-15-13, 05:09 AM
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Good post Mark and thanks for the insight of a small business owner.
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Old 02-15-13, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by surgeonstone
The world is full of fools and his point is a good one, the difference in riding quality between a good 2000 dollar bike and a 7000 dollar bike is not enormous. Between a 4000 dollar bike and a 7000 dollar bike nonexistent.
I tried to point that out on another thread but the sport cyclists swear they can tell the difference.
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Old 02-15-13, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rebel1916
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Here's what he was thinking.
"You sir, are a sucker. Thank you so much for your donation."
Reading your post....if i wrote what i was thinking....
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Old 02-15-13, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
I really didn't mean to start an argument, was only giving a comment supporting what I do to support a very specialized niche business that I want to see prosper.

The kayak shop in question is a 2 hr drive from my house, because no one locally offers their level of service.

Car dealers are a dime a dozen, so no I do not do anything to support them. But yes, all the amenities you mentioned are waste, by the strict definition.

As to the number of fools buying $7k bikes, the recession was caused by people buying things they didn't need with money they didn't have. I am not saying this is your case, only that few seem to discriminate honestly between "want" and "need".
No the recession was started by people buying homes they could not afford with money they didn't have. Most people need a place to live. Just not that nice.
It was not started by people buying EVO's and Beemers.
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Old 02-15-13, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
No the recession was started by people buying homes they could not afford with money they didn't have. Most people need a place to live. Just not that nice.
It was not started by people buying EVO's and Beemers.
In addition, financed by institutions that didn't assume the risk by packaging and selling these high risk loans to suckers
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Old 02-15-13, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by surgeonstone
You just came across one as evidenced in my post above. Pay attention.
Learn how to write and then come back.
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