The imaginary benefits of modern race equipment
#151
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It's actually kind of amusing to see folks claiming that faster bikes don't make for faster races.
As for the point that the TdF has been getting gradually faster, that's true. The fact that it is as true during years of technological stasis as it is during years of dramatic change is yet another bit of evidence. It's also worth noting that marathon speeds have been increasing at approximately the same rate, despite the fact that there is very little technology involved in marathoning. I think it's likely that improvements in sports physiology and training techniques are much more responsible for increased speeds (in the relatively few instances where they actually exist) than brifters and ceramic bearings.
As for the point that the TdF has been getting gradually faster, that's true. The fact that it is as true during years of technological stasis as it is during years of dramatic change is yet another bit of evidence. It's also worth noting that marathon speeds have been increasing at approximately the same rate, despite the fact that there is very little technology involved in marathoning. I think it's likely that improvements in sports physiology and training techniques are much more responsible for increased speeds (in the relatively few instances where they actually exist) than brifters and ceramic bearings.
It has more to say about training methods in conjunction with technology (can you say wind tunnel).

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Last edited by Six jours; 03-08-13 at 10:26 PM.

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Average speeds in Paris-Roubaix have remained consistent for longer than most of us have been alive.

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Anyway, it's been fun, but my neck is hurting again. This time I'm unplugging the computer before dipping into the opiates. Have fun - I know I will!

#155
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Racing is about energy utilization, efficiency and savings. Speeds are worthless in comparison. We've covered that. You agreed. Avg speed comparisons are as stupid, if not more stupid, in actual racing, but energy conservation and proper utilization is exactly the kind of change that integrated levers allowed.
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#157
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The numbers are there for anyone to read: https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...aix-index.html
Average speeds in Paris-Roubaix have remained consistent for longer than most of us have been alive.
Average speeds in Paris-Roubaix have remained consistent for longer than most of us have been alive.
1967: 36.824k/h
1971: 42.708k/h
1974: 37.567k/h
1980: 43.106k/h
1988: 40.322k/h
1994: 36.160k/h
1996: 43.310k/h
2001: 37.703k/h
2010: 39.325k/h
2012: 43.476k/h
Yes, very consistent...
Also, no climbing where STI really kicks arse.

#158
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Try taking apart a set of brifters in the middle of nowhere in a bufu 3rd-world country at the side of the road. I'm not into single-speed bikes AT ALL.
I repair watches and clocks for fun, so a brifter doesn't scare me on my horology bench with the retention barriers to keep the small parts that sometimes shoot off from disappearing. But doign it at the side of the road is going to SUUUUUUUUCK.
While I agree that brifters are somewhat nicer than bar-ends for usability and especially racing (road or cx) in the real world they don't make that much of a difference. When it comes to durability/repairability they are MUCH worse than bar ends. The 8 & 9-speed bar ends can switch to friction if there is an issue. Tell me you can do that with brifters...
I repair watches and clocks for fun, so a brifter doesn't scare me on my horology bench with the retention barriers to keep the small parts that sometimes shoot off from disappearing. But doign it at the side of the road is going to SUUUUUUUUCK.
While I agree that brifters are somewhat nicer than bar-ends for usability and especially racing (road or cx) in the real world they don't make that much of a difference. When it comes to durability/repairability they are MUCH worse than bar ends. The 8 & 9-speed bar ends can switch to friction if there is an issue. Tell me you can do that with brifters...
Again, the older shifters may in principle have greater durability and longevity than modern integrated shifters, but not in a way that has practical consequences. Unless you are that guy doing most of his riding in rural Botswana, I guess. That's really not the scenario for, oh, at least 50% of people riding road bikes.

#159
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You raced in the old days, you don't remember the tactical importance of changing gear at the right time? Old cycling films and writing refer to riders - pros, mind you - missing moves or losing time on climbs because they were in the wrong gear or changed at the wrong time. That doesn't happen any more. Which should be more than sufficient evidence of how much STI changed the game. It doesn't have to be such an improvement that anyone not on STI never wins once it is introduced, it only needs to be enough of an improvement that those not on STI have to overcome a clear disadvantage. LeMond winning the TDF with DT shifters doesn't prove that there's no disadvantage, it only means that it is possible to overcome that disadvantage. When I raced with DT shifters, plenty of riders placed behind me. That doesn't mean that I didn't have a disadvantage to overcome.

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Straw man commeth.
The average speeds of the TdeF have increased until they peaked a few years ago and have dropped back down to pre EPO levels.
A truer comparison would be TT speeds on the same course over the last few decades.
Who wants to do the google work on that one.
The average speeds of the TdeF have increased until they peaked a few years ago and have dropped back down to pre EPO levels.
A truer comparison would be TT speeds on the same course over the last few decades.
Who wants to do the google work on that one.

#161
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...I thought that's what this was all about.
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More accurately it is about position on the bike. Lemond was on a steel bike with DT shifters, and an old school Mavic disc (what material were those) and low profile front wheel. The only thing different of course were his aerobars and helmet.

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I don't think it happens very often to any kind of shifter, and I'm a guy who has broken 4 frames, had 2 pedals snap off, broken at least 4 seatposts, 3 saddle rails, 2 stems, lots of wheels, spokes, chains, etc., etc.

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The purpose of a racing bicycle is not to go fast. The sole purpose of a racing bicycle is to win bicycle races.

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My favorite cycling quote. J.A.
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I've never had a shifter fail, either, and I can only think of one time seeing (at an organized ride) an Ultegra STI shifter stuck and I think a dt shifter once years ago.
I don't think it happens very often to any kind of shifter, and I'm a guy who has broken 4 frames, had 2 pedals snap off, broken at least 4 seatposts, 3 saddle rails, 2 stems, lots of wheels, spokes, chains, etc., etc.
I don't think it happens very often to any kind of shifter, and I'm a guy who has broken 4 frames, had 2 pedals snap off, broken at least 4 seatposts, 3 saddle rails, 2 stems, lots of wheels, spokes, chains, etc., etc.
It's gotten quiet. Must be past all the retrogrouchs' bedtime. That or a discount at A buffet place.
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Milk delivered to the front porch, rabbit ears with tin foil, pay phones with rotary dial, maps....


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Manufactured obsolescence, designed to fail, quality created in Japan by a (commie) American who didn't fit in here...
How the heck did poor craftsmanship become an American trait, thus assuring repair shops and spare parts were everywhere?
Only Maytag had a reputation for not breaking. Then Japan crushed the USA on quality for generations, and only recently have US companies strived to acheive.
Yes. We do things different now. We can make composite bikes that are stronger and lighter than the steel ones... generally speaking, better in every way. Unless you still think "wet noodle" is a ride "quality".
How the heck did poor craftsmanship become an American trait, thus assuring repair shops and spare parts were everywhere?
Only Maytag had a reputation for not breaking. Then Japan crushed the USA on quality for generations, and only recently have US companies strived to acheive.
Yes. We do things different now. We can make composite bikes that are stronger and lighter than the steel ones... generally speaking, better in every way. Unless you still think "wet noodle" is a ride "quality".

#170
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All you retro grouches need to go back into your own world where you can continue to reaffirm your ignorance and prejudices to each other. Leave facts to the rest of us.

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I love my 33-year old steel Masi, but when I need to go long or high, or go against a bunch of 40-year-olds (I'm 60), I reach for my Madone. This new sh** is terrific.

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I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the job and if I'm racing I choose equipment accordingly.

#174
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I raced in the late 80's early 90's and bought a 1991 Basso Lotto SLX full Campy record, even those notoriuos yet beautiful delta brakes. I agree with the OP although the game changers came in at brifters for me....everything else became evolutionary rather than revolutionary. I now ride 300+ miles a month, have 9 bikes and go for what works the best for the money...................
to me, SRAM Force.
to me, SRAM Force.

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For the 37th time, integrated shifters don't raise the average speed of a race, they allow you to shift more quickly, accurately, and while climbing and sprinting. A vast improvement for racers.
Clipless are not "faster" than toe clips and straps either, but they are more comfortable and convenient.
A solo rider touring the back roads may not care so much, but personally I would want them no matter where I am riding.
Clipless are not "faster" than toe clips and straps either, but they are more comfortable and convenient.
A solo rider touring the back roads may not care so much, but personally I would want them no matter where I am riding.
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Last edited by Homebrew01; 03-09-13 at 07:53 AM.
