DaveWC

Then it's pointed out that TDF average speeds have been increasing throughout the history of the ride...

So when the actual overall results don't provide the conclusion that a comparison of two single races do, attribute the increase in speed to training & conditioning. In the end the OP has just acknowledged that his overall conclusion, that speeds have not increased over the years, is wrong. Now he's hunting for a reason for that speed increase.

loky1179

Why again? Its to let the people who have spent thousands $$$ on the latest and greatest tell the people that can't/don't want to spend the money why they HAVE to buy a new bike.

MikeyBoyAz

8 pages in 1.5 days. Awesome. I like my new fan-dangled bike. [That's all I can think to say for now]

DerHoggz

Would you race the English? Rob does, and wins quite a bit. An English frame is my planned gift to myself upon graduating and getting a job. He does some really amazing work.

According to Alexi Grewal, the only difference between racing in the '80s and today is it is more surge-y.

robbyville

[QUOTE=Six jours;15363600]Fair enough. When I was racing I usually had my straps loose for most of the day, and cranked them down just for the finish. I initially figured the new-fangled clipless stuff was for tourists, because the only real advantage was comfort and convenience. In a way that's still true, but of course clipless works just fine for pretty much any kind of racing. I won't argue that clips and straps are better in any way. I just point out that they aren't actually slower in a competitive situation.

SJ, welcome back and thanks for the best thread in a while. I agree with good natured ribbing.

FWIW, toe clips and straps caused me to become egotistical and broke my collar bone. One day back in 1987 I had been sitting on a patio drinking too many sangrias and eating $1 tacos, got on my bike to ride home, had some diadora cleats at the time, cinched down tight and was showing off my track stand skills to my friends, tipped over snapped my collar bone. Never would have happened with clipless

caloso

Can't believe no one has mentioned power meters. That has been the greatest innovation for me, an aging self-supported racer.

Six jours

No. I'm pointing out that there is no clear-cut increase in overall speeds attributable to new tech. If the new tech did produce "clear and distinct" increases in speed then it would clearly and distinctly show up in race results. It doesn't: some races, like the TdF, have been getting gradually faster, but they've been doing it at a pretty steady rate regardless of technology. Other races have been stagnant, speed-wise, for decades, again regardless of technology.

That leaves folks to argue that faster bikes don't make for faster races. We can all decide for ourselves on the validity of that one...

svtmike

How are you isolating the effect of equipment technology (which marches on every year just like training technology) such that you can conclude that it is not contributing to the gradual increase in speed?

Six jours

Technology really has not "marched on every year". Technology was actually pretty stagnant throughout much of cycling history. Campy drop-parallelogram derailleurs, Reynolds 531, cotton tubulars, aluminum rims... that was pretty much state of the art for several decades prior to the mid-1980s.

ls01

We? What we are you reffering to? not many carbon bikes are made here any more.

svtmike

And what about the nearly 30 years that coincide with your OP?

Psimet2001 

If we can't even agree that integrated levers, nice frames, and clip less pedals are better than what came before I'm afraid that bringing up powermeters over the tried an true raw egg diet, no sex before a race, and RPE training system...some heads might begin to explode. But if you're going to bring it up I suggest we do it now. These guys have to be getting close to bed time.

JohnDThompson 

Seems to me the Sangria was probably more to blame than the toeclips.

dnuzzomueller

I remember reading somewhere that Racers in the TdF disliked the fact that they were racing on re-purposed touring machines. THen those guys ended up making their own bike companies that gave us the fancy bikes.

Well At the very least we can agree that Dual pivot was a huge step over single pivot.......wait....that is going backwards now.

oldbobcat

Nobody needs to have a new bike. Nobody needs to tell everybody else they can't have a new bike. Ride what ya' brung, smile, and quit complainin'.

Bob Dopolina 

No, it would be a sunny Sunday going to meeting bike. I think I'd build it with Athena and some not so deep hoops.

Constant surges are easier handled with STI, non?

Bob Dopolina 

Don't misquote or misrepresent my meaning. A "clear and distinct advantage" don't automatically mean races will be faster and using ave speed as a metric is ridiculous as there are far too many other factors involved. Your incorrect claim about Paris-Roubaix being run at nearly constant averages over the years should have pretty much ended the use of ave speed as ANY kind of metric.

How about addressing the specific points being made?

Are you asserting that a rider on DT shifters can match surges and constant tempo changes on a climb with riders using STI?

Are you asserting that clipless is neither safer nor more comfortable that clips and straps? Don't wander off into how secure clips and straps can be because it's been agreed that they can be very, very secure.

Are you asserting that all the wind tunnel work done over the last few decades clearly showing decreases in drag directly related to equipment are incorrect?

Seriously?

Six jours

Your meaning was pretty clear and distinct. I don't see how I'm misrepresenting or misquoting you. And I can't begin to understand how folks can argue that faster bicycles don't make for faster races. Moreover, the quote about Paris-Roubaix was not incorrect. Again, folks are free to follow the links and look for themselves.

Yes. I was there when STI came out, and I raced against people using it. They didn't go any faster than they had with DT shifters.

I'm talking about speed.

TT bikes are definitely faster, no question. But that's mostly due to aero bars and disk wheels - I specifically exempted TT bikes in the OP. I'm discussing road bikes, as ridden by racers and weekend warriors.

Six jours

Actually, racing bikes were slower than touring bikes up through 1935 or so, because the tourists were using derailleurs and the racers were using flip-flop hubs. As soon as racers started using derailleurs, they had their frames made for them to their specifications.

wphamilton

I don't know how imaginary it is, but on pure whim I replaced my downtube shifters with integrated brake levers today and I have to confess that I liked it. You guys probably don't think of used Sora eight speed shifters as "modern race equipment". But these things are relative.

I'll let you know if they result in some Strava KOMs on my commute.

Six jours

For whatever it's worth, I'm not saying that old bikes are better than new ones. In fact, I'm not necessarily even saying that new bikes aren't better than old ones, depending upon a person's definition of "better". I ride and enjoy modern bikes myself.

What I am saying is that modern road bikes are not significantly faster than road bikes from about 1960 onward, and that claims of dramatically increased speed on the latest road bikes stem more from hopes and dreams than from anything actually measurable.

I know this thread is still going to result in me being "the guy who thinks clipless sucks" no matter how much I deny it, but I'm going to try anyway.

hueyhoolihan

Bob Dopolina 

I posted the times for PR. You are incorrect. Very, very incorrect. The times are all over the place because weather is such a critical factor. Scroll back and look for yourself.

The fastest race in 1964 had a strong tailwind and only 22km of cobbles. I posted a link to this as well. So that would be another fact you've gotten wrong.

Faster bikes don't guarantee faster races because they don't exist in a vacuum. Race radios have altered racing and, I believe, slowed them down in many cases until critical points in the race. The dynamics or racing have changed as well with no rider or team dominating like has happened in the past.

This would affect ave spd, non? And what does ave spd have to do with anything? It is a useless metric.

I also notice how you conveniently ignore any of the very specific questions I have asked you to comment on which show just how silly some of your assertions are.

Incorrect. Davis Phinney was an early adopter and claimed it was an unfair advantage - his words.

I ALSO started racing with DT shifters and continue to race (albiet much slower and much less frequently) and you couldn't pay me enough to give up STI, Ergo or the like.

No, you have been talking about a lot of other things as well. If it was all about speed it could be settled in a wind tunnel. Oh wait, it already was.

See the above.

One more question for you to not answer: Was was typical RR gearing for a five or even six spd freewheel, for a flat race, and what is it now?

I'd appreciate your thoughts as to why they are different.

Six jours

I think I see the problem. When I say "consistent", I mean consistent over a period of time, not that each year is consistent with the next.

I posted that 1964 was the fastest Paris-Roubaix and to prove me wrong you post that 1964 was the fastest Paris-Roubaix?

As I've written repeatedly, "faster bikes don't make faster bike races" is nonsensical.

Seriously? What does average speed have to do with how fast bicycles are?

I've tried to answer all your questions. I think you just don't like the answers.

Can you name any race he won with STI against riders using DT shifters?

How did your results change once you went to STI?

Read my OP again. It's all about speed.

Straight block with a thirteen on the bottom, and later a twelve. I assume it's the same now, albeit with an eleven.

Because spinters stand and hammer a big gear at relatively low cadence now, whereas they used to sit and spin a smaller one.

Gladius

Reminds me of the 6-speed vs DCT/PDK and normally aspirated vs turbo threads on my car forums...