Gerry Hull

I appreciate that, thank you.

Campag4life

I will add to RT's comments. Will preface and say, while I disagree with you maybe on a technical level as noted previously...I prefer 2 X 10 for a race bike for best chainline, I will say I think you are a creative guy and a strong rider and congrats on your success.

Gerry Hull

Thanks C-4, from you that means lot.

The Black and Blue 208 mountain climb shld give a much better idea of whether or not a 1x10 can meet the three most important requirements I've set down:
-versatile
-mechanically irreproachable
-fast

Ultimately it's just a personal experiment with no meaning other than that it gives my mind something to do besides work.

I'm pretty clear on that part.

Gerry Hull

If it goes badly I'm just going to dump the bike and try my hand at small business as a hobby. This man's bold, visionary example has given me a lot of inspiration lately:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0B7mXNO0Xs&sns=em

Biscayne05

Finally found the 1x10 Scott. It's from user c0lnag0

svtmike

No chainkeeper on that one. Only required for the big ring?

Lspade

Thank you for this thread. I love simplicity and I will be trying this with my old road bike as soon as my new one arrives.

Gerry Hull

Is difficult to explain why, but the smaller the front ring, the less prone the chain will be to hopping off during a weird bump or an upshift.

there is also an element of mystery involved- through an interplay of variables that are too numerous to comprehend, some of us have had a bike or two that never lost the chain, despite having no keeper.

I use them now routinely, since losing chain one time when in mid-pack on an "aggressive" group ride. Ever been right behind a guy on a fast uphill and all a sudden he drops his chain?

So part of the obsession with developing the perfect chainkeeper- and I've almost nailed it- is less about avoiding inconvenience than about maximizing safety for myself and the people riding with me.

svtmike

Never a drop, but a chain break one time and a severe leg cramp the other. Neither ended in a crash, thank goodness.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

RT

This thread keeps me from buying new levers and going back to 2x on my 1x. Maybe I need to go from 42t/12-30 to 48t/12-34?

Gerry Hull

Fyi, a 1x10 will work just fine with about 5% of the technical attention I've given to it. An unramped, flat, 3/32 sugino chainring will give a darn-near-midpoint chainline without having to mess with anything else, "Paul's" makes fabulous chainkeepers that are less gorgeous but more adjustable than mine (and theyre coming out with a braze-on version, supposedly); 11-36 10 speed cassettes are now a dime a dozen if you've got shifters that will work with an mtb derailleur; if not, plenty road rear d's will now handle 11-32. Done.

God knows what other people are looking for in this thread, but for myself I am aiming to use it merely as an engineer's diary for several ongoing experiments that may (or may not) be of interest. The chance of my being able to make a useful technical contribution to cycling approaches zero. But why not give it one's best, just the same?

A 1x10 is nothing new, but I thought it made for the most suitable umbrella to group those experiments beneath. Most of them have received at least passing mention so far, but I am going to try and be a bit more methodical about documenting what I am doing, and what I am trying to accomplish.

The overall goal is simply stated: build the fastest, quietest, simplest, most versatile bicycle for competing in 100-250 mile events.

Restrictions: no aerobars; looks (somewhat) and performs more or less like any road-bike; even if not the ideal for all types of competition or recreation, it should still be acceptably fast and comfortable. * I do not know if the cervelo p2 frame, outfitted with drop bars and the smaller 'UCI compliant' seatpost, could legally participate in cat races. Is not issue for me, since I have no ambitions there. It would be interesting to know, though.

The areas of experimentation are:

1) the 1x10, of course.
2) use of very narrow (36cm) bars for road-racing/riding
3) use of a high-spec grease solvent for chain lube. The value of this one for quietness, cleanliness, longevity, and waterproofness is already pretty much proven, and this particular formula has been in full-time use by 6-8 LBS mechanic/racer friends for about a year now. I love seeing the happiness and amazement it brings, they are like children at Christmas. But DOA as a mass-produced product since the solvent evaporates so quickly you've got to keep the stuff in your refrigerator. I will probably do a you-tube vid on how to make it yourself, though. This one was a hell of a lot of work to come up with. Somebody should enjoy it besides me and a few bros. It more than compensates for increased drivetrain stress of 1x10.
4) steep steat angle geometry that permits a 47 y/o with history of lumbar pain to ride flat-backed for extended distances without overloading arm/shoulder/neck muscles.
5) various geegaws (i.e. the spare-tube bottle cage), outer space lubricants (i.e. Krytox rfe/ppe for cables).

The set-up (constants, hopefully)
DA 7900 50 or 54t chainring, modified.
DA 7901 chain
Sram xx rd, med cage, slightly modified.
sram red 2013 shifter
cassette- was Shimano dynasys 11-36, changing to Sram 1070 11-36. Seems quieter and a snappier shifter.

that's a lot to think about for a season of riding so I ought focus my participation on forums to this stuff. I do like to visit other threads, but I think it's pretty apparent from my comments there that, apart from these particular topics above, I have no earthly idea what I am talking about.

that Scott up there is pretty hot

Gerry Hull

Man I just love thinking about gears and ratios
is like addiction almost
Thinking thinking thinking
what can I get away with?
how do I do it?

the mind needs rest from it. So here is a very different type of interlude for you. It's what I should be working on right now instead of filing cog teeth:
https://docs.google.com/presentation....g1bda33e5_0_0

Gerry Hull

Army.

RT

With the advent of concealed derailleur cabling, there is much less of an aesthetic issue with cable-vision. This is usually what stopped me, and why my current 1x has Tektro aero levers (look a bit like Campy) and a Sunrace friction shifter. The hideous angle of the bars and levers has been corrected. No need to call the authorities.

Gerry Hull

Im calling them anyway

Actually (without my photoshop) this is pleasing to look at, sensible and ergo-friendly. Has got me thinking. There has just got to be a way to pervert the intended use of those snazzy overpriced TT (sram and zipp i think) shifters that stay in same position all the time.

c0lnago

That's mine...it hasn't needed a chain keeper. No issues. No big ring...only one shift lever. It's a 33t...just for climbing fun...it won't keep pace on anything flat/fast. I originally intended to do a 1x6 with dt shifters and one brake but was too much trouble and the brakes don't inspire confidence. Maybe this year I'll tweak it. It's definitely light as is...

Gerry Hull

Demand drivetrain closeup!
is very pretty

Gerry Hull

Because it is operating a bit outside the limits of its intended use, 1x10 drivetrains may be noisier at the extreme cogs. The video is an (inadequately detailed) tutorial on how to emulate, with file and sandpaper, the technical changes you would see if, say, Dura ace issued a 1x10 gruppo.
Silence and smoothness is the goal.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTiPoifDGJI&sns=em

RT

The more this thread get fueled, the less sense 1x10 makes. No matter what cluster you use, there is a generous leap at the end. It all boils down to how comfortable you are with speeds 1-8 or 1-9, even 1-7. I would wager the extra cog (somewheres in the middle) didn't help you as much. 7,8,9 speed components are much more resilient when it comes to extreme chainlines.

In what part of the cassette did you spend the most time?

wphamilton

File down the chainring and inner cog - I'm going to try this on my 1x8! I'd moved my chainline out one cog so that it's quiet at the smallest cogs where I spend most of my time but that big cog is noisy indeed. It makes perfect sense, but for powered operation you only really need the leading edge of the cog teeth rounded, right? A perfectionist might want to shape each tooth individually.

Aaron_F

I use 54/42 x 11/23 (SRAM).

You have more range than I do. If I went your route, I could use an 11/30 cassette and have the same range I currently do, plus less weight. Also, with the super narrow gearing on an 11/23, I find myself double shifting quite often.

I may have to think about this. Fortunately, I'm no stranger to crazy gearing set-ups.

c0lnago

Sure...here you go.

Gerry Hull

ah, c'mon. You're not a wagering sort of man anyway. You're a curious man. Of course 7/8/9 speed stuff is more resilient. To, well, EVERYTHING. That's why I've been riding 1x4's, 1x5's, sixes sevens etc for last five years, all built from 8 and 9 speed components. They are superior in strength and durability and always will be.

For the first 17 hours of a 500 mile race in Texas hill country I utterly demolished the field on a 1x4- 50x 12,14,17,20; suicide shifters (yes this is in an online archive somewhere). At 320 miles, 20 miles ahead of 2nd place, I pulled over to the side of the road, fell asleep and did not get up. I was fried from showing off, really, and riding stupid. It was a glorious DNF, though. I am still proud of it.

I'm not that special, but this did prove to me that the phrase "optimal cadence" is a marketing term, bearing little relation to the real-world physiology of average overambitious amateur slobs like myself . I like knowing what is true and what is not.

As for the jumps- check your math. The jump from 11 to 13 is greater than 32 to 36. On the road the transitions are not the least bit jarring- unless you are staring at a cadence computer and become highly discomfitted if your pedaling speed goes outside your 86 to 89 rpm "optimal cadence" or whatever. To little credit is given to human adaptability.

why 1x10? It's still a good question. Answer: because if I want to use contemporary shifters, I'm freaking stuck with it, that's why. The Sram red doubletaps are a joy to use. Shimanos have improved too. So I have to make a 10 speed work with it. And the fact is, transition-wise, the 11-36 10 speed is quite a bit smoother than the 11-32 8 speed I used a couple years ago. So, despite being put together more out of evil necessity than genuine desire, I am extremely happy with it. It did require the modifications in the video, and some others that I didnt go into, since a lot of the stuff I do is probably outside the competence or patience level of the average person.

The big cog takes about 5 minutes of work, once you realize what needs to be done.
chainring work is the trickiest, by far. Video not do it justice.

it is good, this 1x10 thing.
I have same range as my weenie friends, and I can get there quicker and with less hullabaloo.

And don't forget the goal- a raceworthy bike capable over 200+ miles of any terrain. Meaning, that bike has got to be a dream to ride- versatile, simple, quiet, and fast.

Gerry Hull

Why, he certainly would.
Careful, my friend- you are standing at the edge of an infinitely deep and twisted rabbit hole here; I have been conscious of your safety and sanity, therefore the mods in the tutorial bring you as close to the edge as you can get without falling in.

Experience has shown these minor surgeries will yield similar improvements in any 1x setup. And btw mine, too, is slightly biased to the high gears, so taking care of that giant cog was mandatory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTiPoifDGJI&sns=em

wphamilton

There is no need for your concern, considering what I ride already without even the hint of self-consciousness that a normal reasonable person would endure.