Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Just went to a carbon frame from aluminum frame, so where is the big speed gain??

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Just went to a carbon frame from aluminum frame, so where is the big speed gain??

Old 04-22-13, 06:12 AM
  #1  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Readington, NJ
Posts: 14

Bikes: 2006 Trek 1200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Just went to a carbon frame from aluminum frame, so where is the big speed gain??

I've been riding an aluminum frame Trek for 7 years and finally splurged ona new Cervelo S2 with upgraded Ultegra crank. My first ride was yesterday and I did a 17 mile loop I've done a bunch of times and was expecting to blow my normal time away with this new ride. So I get done and check my time and no gain! In fact I have done the loop faster on my old Trek atleast once. Needless to say I'm a bit disappointed but maybe I need to get use to the new gearing and fit before any gains are realized? Am I being too quick to judge here or did I spend $3k and really did not gain any mechanical advantage?

Thanks
Delco is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:15 AM
  #2  
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,568

Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 2,132 Times in 1,438 Posts
What makes you think changing the material on a frame adds speed? Unless you change geometry or aero shape, there's no difference at all in performance.
StanSeven is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:17 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England, Great Britain
Posts: 260

Bikes: Tarmac/LangsterPro/Epic

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There is no 'big speed gain' in my opinion atleast.
I wouldn't say it was for nothing if you haven't got it fitting right yet and you were otherwise focused with gearing. But, cogs are cogs, what's so different with the gears?
And, I wouldn't take the bashing about carbon this thread is about to receive too seriously.
Lew. is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:17 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
mymojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Plano, Texxas
Posts: 517

Bikes: '10 Specialized Allez, '09 Cervelo S1, '93 Trek T200 (tandem), Rocky Mountain Metro 30

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Its not about the bike.
mymojo is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:23 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Silvercivic27's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,435

Bikes: Colnago, Cervelo, Scott

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 191 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Return that piece of junk! Carbon sucks!! Quick, everyone, upgrade to 7 year old aluminum Treks!! Call Europe before the Tour starts!!
Silvercivic27 is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:23 AM
  #6  
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,217

Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked 117 Times in 41 Posts
Go for a MUCH longer ride and you will start to see a difference.
__________________
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook, instagram



Bob Dopolina is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:26 AM
  #7  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Readington, NJ
Posts: 14

Bikes: 2006 Trek 1200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So if changing the frame material adds no speed then why would anyone decide to pay more for a carbon frame? What are the advantages of carbon fiber? It certainly isn't the price.

Silvercivic, let's keep the whole 7 year old trek thing under wraps until we sort this out. We may be onto something here...

Last edited by Delco; 04-22-13 at 06:29 AM. Reason: didn't see the other posts
Delco is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:28 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
No carbon bashing here. I have it and like it. But OP, you are kidding aren't you? Did you really believe the magazine reviews that say such and such a bike just flies up the hills and other similar foolishness? Not in this universe. It is all hype once you are playing in the same ball park.

The only reason to buy a new bike is, uh, new bikes are cool. The only reason to spend more for carbon and higher end parts is, I don't know. What? You deserve it? It makes you feel good? All I can say is that is what I keep telling my wife.

There is one other thing. Bianchi10 says he rides his new ENVE wheels faster than his old wheels. Most likely they stimulate him mentally to perform better. It is kind of like religion. You have to believe it first for it to possibly be true. The bike isn't going to do the work.

Now go enjoy that new bike. I'm envious.

Robert
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:31 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,435 Times in 4,663 Posts
My average speed increased by 2mph when I went to a carbon frame - you must be doing it wrong. HTFU, dial it up to 400w and drope the hamer.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:45 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Adrianinkc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Can't buy speed
Adrianinkc is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 06:53 AM
  #11  
mud
Lurker
 
mud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: So IL
Posts: 269

Bikes: 07 Fuji Professional 2.0, Specialized Roubaix SL4 Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Just upgraded my carbon Fuji Pro 2.0 to a Specialized Roubaix SL4, don't go much faster if any, BUT what a sweet ride!!!!!!!!
mud is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:00 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ypsilanti, MI
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Over the course of a much longer ride, or over the course of a much larger sample size, I think you'll notice the more aero and (presumably) lighter Cervelo will be faster (assuming the Cervelo's wheels/tires don't suck compared to whatever you had on the Trek).

But...dont expect to seem big differences. 1mph? If that. So why buy the new Cervelo? Well...lots of reasons. Fit, comfort, aesthetics, or just to have something nice and new, or maybe you need that extra tiny bit of speed for a PR or something. Buying stuff is fun!
teamtrinity is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:14 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Nick Bain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Driftless
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: Caad8, Mukluk 3, Trek Superfly, Gary Fisher Irwin.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
[QUOTE=Delco;15537636]So if changing the frame material adds no speed then why would anyone decide to pay more for a carbon frame? What are the advantages of carbon fiber? It certainly isn't the price.

QUOTE]

The same person that decides to buy one without first researching the values of a carbon frame.

Nick Bain is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:17 AM
  #14  
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,271

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1426 Post(s)
Liked 692 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by StanSeven
What makes you think changing the material on a frame adds speed? Unless you change geometry or aero shape, there's no difference at all in performance.
There is a difference. It's just not the big difference in speed that some people expect.

Without knowing which Trek exactly, you can't quantify. But an aluminum Trek is likely a pound or so heavier than a Cervelo S2. On flat ground, that difference makes an extremely small time difference. Climbing it makes a small, but measurable difference. Accelerating it makes a tiny difference.

The real time adavantage of the S2 is the aerodynamic frame. That's worth a handful of seconds over 17 miles.

Thus, the expected time improvement, is well within the range of normal variability between the OP's best and worst times. Hence the very small differences are lost in the noise of the non controlled experiment.

As BobD alludes to, you'll see more advantage over a longer ride to the extent the ride is more comfortable and you stay fresher over the ride.
Thus ride quality, handling, etc. tend to be more reason to buy a nice CF bike, than to get an improvement in your average speed.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:18 AM
  #15  
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 42,919

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 560 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22473 Post(s)
Liked 8,794 Times in 4,092 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
Go for a MUCH longer ride and you will start to see a difference.
Maybe in comfort....but not speed.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:24 AM
  #16  
Mr. Dopolina
 
Bob Dopolina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,217

Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked 117 Times in 41 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas
Maybe in comfort....but not speed.
As merlinX pointed out carbon will leave you fresher over a longer ride which can result in more speed later in the ride.
__________________
BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook, instagram



Bob Dopolina is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:25 AM
  #17  
Descends like a rock
 
pallen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 4,034

Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 8 Posts
You might not ever see a difference in speed. What better frames may get you is a more responsive feel, better control and handling, and comfort. Carbon is usually lighter and stiffer and makes the bike feel different. You may or may not enjoy or appreciate that difference, but that's a lot of what people are paying for - that and bling .
pallen is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:27 AM
  #18  
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,271

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1426 Post(s)
Liked 692 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by teamtrinity
But...dont expect to seem big differences. 1mph? If that.
Likely, substantially less than 1 mph.

Velonews' testing had an S5 saving 82 seconds in a 40k at 30mph, which is about .8mph.

Consider that 1) the S5 (with Enve wheels) is substantially more aero than the OP's S2; 2) that Wind tunnel tests can overstate real world benefits, and 3) the savings at a typical cruising pace are substantially less than at 30mph.

Thus, I'd expect something more like .1-.2mph.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:28 AM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ypsilanti, MI
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas
Maybe in comfort....but not speed.
Often times, comfort equals speed. Especially for longer rides.
teamtrinity is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:34 AM
  #20  
gc3
Falls Downalot
 
gc3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 3,103

Bikes: Now I Got Two

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Delco
I've been riding an aluminum frame Trek for 7 years and finally splurged ona new Cervelo S2 with upgraded Ultegra crank.....
Hey man, it must be your engine....when I got my first carbon frame (a) my average speed went up 6 mph, and (b) several 22 year old victoria's secret models stopped me to get my phone number...not sure what you're doing wrong...
gc3 is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:35 AM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
1. Carbon is not faster than aluminum. Period. So if you expect to get a speed gain, yes, you've probably wasted your money. You will have gained zero mechanical advantage.

2. Cervelo carbon bikes are notoriously super-stiff. This allows a 'livelier' feel when you hammer, but also means that it's a pretty harsh ride. I have a Cervelo CF bike and a $700 aluminum Giant Defy, and honestly, the Giant Defy is a smoother ride than the Cervelo (even with a non-carbon fork.) I think it's the frame geometry, including that huge BB that Cervelos have. I was warned about this when I bought the bike from my LBS, as they apparently had quite a few people complain about the harsh ride thinking that a CF would be magically softer than alu, when it's not necessarily the case. It would be if the frames were the exact same geometry probably, but they're usually not, and Cervelos are meant for racing more than touring. So not bizarre that my alu bike is more comfortable than my CF bike, including less road chatter.
hhnngg1 is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:36 AM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
Fox Farm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,750

Bikes: Merlin Extra Light, Orbea Orca, Ritchey Outback,Tomac Revolver Mountain Bike, Cannondale Crit 3.0 now used for time trials.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 34 Posts
For the OP - does your new bike fit you as well as your old bike did? You are certainly more familiar with the old bike. For me, changing to aero wheels make a huge difference (ok, relative but my average speed was faster on the route that I rode regularly.) Unknown was climatic changes that early evening, diet and health of how I really felt, OR was it the idea of new wheels that made me push that much harder?
Fox Farm is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:40 AM
  #23  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Readington, NJ
Posts: 14

Bikes: 2006 Trek 1200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
[QUOTE=Nick Bain;15537763]
Originally Posted by Delco
So if changing the frame material adds no speed then why would anyone decide to pay more for a carbon frame? What are the advantages of carbon fiber? It certainly isn't the price.

QUOTE]

The same person that decides to buy one without first researching the values of a carbon frame.

Point taken Nick, best to research this before you buy. I guess the way I can justify the new bike :

1 - I love the new bike and will make it a point to ride more
2 - The bike is noticably tighter and handles better
3 - The bike is noticably more comfortable mostly because it is the correct size (54 vs 56 for my old trek)
4 - I did get a sweet deal so in all I probably spent a few hundred more for a comparable aluminum frame ride.
5 - The bike shifts way better then the Tiagra triple I have on the Trek

Thanks for all the comments & ball busting, I love it!
Delco is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:40 AM
  #24  
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,032
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8147 Post(s)
Liked 8,800 Times in 4,368 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
As merlinX pointed out carbon will leave you fresher over a longer ride which can result in more speed later in the ride.
Plus, if you're doing a lot of climbing a lighter bike will save a bit of energy on the climbs, or climb faster depending on how high you dial up the watts.
big john is offline  
Old 04-22-13, 07:46 AM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 36 Posts
[QUOTE=Delco;15537848]
Originally Posted by Nick Bain

Point taken Nick, best to research this before you buy. I guess the way I can justify the new bike :

1 - I love the new bike and will make it a point to ride more
2 - The bike is noticably tighter and handles better
3 - The bike is noticably more comfortable mostly because it is the correct size (54 vs 56 for my old trek)
4 - I did get a sweet deal so in all I probably spent a few hundred more for a comparable aluminum frame ride.
5 - The bike shifts way better then the Tiagra triple I have on the Trek

Thanks for all the comments & ball busting, I love it!
Now that's what I'm talkin' about.
rpenmanparker is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.