Sabby

I'm actually from Lutcher, if you know where that is on I-10 on your way to Baton Rouge. I'm from the River Parishes. But my husband is from Lafayette.

I'm gonna end up calling it ROObeh, I know it. And the bike shop guy will look at me funny and say, No, it's RObay, lady, geez.

Sabby

I'm actually a statistician so my mathiness will be a little different than yours. Making that matrix is second nature to me.

I think what is important in the next few days is to try the Roubaix style geometry and then perhaps the Tarmac and see which one, in both sizes, I like best.

I have a feeling I won't be able to tell from riding for a few minutes. Things like cricks in the neck or fatiguing arches, CHAFING, etc, don't come up until the ride is more than an hour.

Oh, god, chafing. I, of the thunderthighs, will be on the lookout for potential chafing.

Where does one usually chafe on a road bike? On my mtb if I chafe it's inner thighs about 3-4 inches down from the lady parts. IF I go for a long ride I'll wear compression shorts under my running shorts. I have yet to buy cycling shorts. I'm too pudgy for tights, get self-conscious (I'm very fit, just not very lean). I'll probably get the looser kind.

/ramble

Campag4life

In bold above...great plan. Find the Tarmac geo chart in the next short while off Specialized site and now construct your matrix 3 X 3...3 bikes X 3 dimensions.

OK...chafing with 'athletic' thighs. Chafing will be independent of what bike you choose, so don't let that be a determinant. Neck cricks as you call them are a big deal and why many including me are on a Roubaix.

As to chafing...key is....balm...as in butt balm...do a search....good compression tights...bibs are best....like Pearl Izumi...decent value...and the right saddle.
Generally those with muscular thighs will prefer a bit narrower saddle as it tapers front to rear. But curve matters as well top to bottom.
So you will have to experiment. But your choice of frame selection is really independent of that issue.

Btw...you aren't too pudgy for tights. You really can't afford not to wear proper bibs or compression shorts if you are serious about cycling which will allow you to drop some serious weight if you are disciplined.

Have fun.

rpenmanparker 

OMG, a statistician. One of the few people on Earth who really understands how it works! Trouble is, you can't convince anyone else, right? Do you have a room where you can go to close the door behind you and scream?

There are good products to prevent chafing in various places. Men, of course have different problems than women. The product I like is called Body Glide. It comes in a stick with a plastic housing like deodorant. Runners and cyclists both use it. I'd say it doesn't work the same for everybody. The personal satisfaction with the product probably plots as a bell curve. My results put me at about +2.5 sigma. You will probably land elsewhere on the curve.

Hey, I am just having some fun with you. I'll stop now. Body Glide is good stuff.

BTW, when you test ride, you might want to ask for a woman's saddle, which generally mean wide at the back. With wider pelvises women generally have wider spaced sit bones. If/when you buy from Bikes Direct, I wonder if they will change the saddle to a comparable women's model. No substitutions and all that. You may have to plan on changing it yourself when you get the bike and reselling the original saddle. No big deal.

I can't say for sure, but I think you will find that lycra shorts will be more comfortable than loose ones. You will get more chafing with loose shorts than tight ones. And a quality pad (use to be called chamois) is essential to long riding comfort. I know it seems like just fashion, but folks wear the specific clothes for very good functional reasons.

Robert

rpenmanparker 

Oh my, we have lost count of the number of times we have driven through there on the way back to NOLA for family visits. I hate clichés, but can't resist: when you get your new bike you really do plan to "laissez les bon temps rouler", eh?

Robert (or is it RoBAIR?)

rpenmanparker 

Funny the different things we said about saddles. I don't think we are disagreeing. I think you are talking about a narrow front, while I am talking about the possible need for a wide back. I suppose those requirements are compatible from what you said about tapering.

Robert

Sabby

Hey, guys, thanks for the votes of confidence the past couple days. I got back to the States yesterday around 6:30am after a 16 hour flight (and a 2 hour one before that) and had a full day before passing out at 10pm. Today I am a bit jetlagged but not exhausted.

As for Body Glide, I have some but I am probably -1 to -0.5 sigma on that curve. Once you see my photos you'll understand. I am really heavy in the thighs. Exercise never causes weight loss for me. I lost 80lbs in 2008 but right now I am probably more than 10lbs heavier than my regular 140lbs. I was on some meds that made me gain nearly 20lbs but I've lost 5-8lbs since getting off it. I'm hoping the rest will just come off on its own over the next month. But, generally, for me to lose weight I have to modify my diet, not my exercise. Even when I am running 75 miles a week I don't lose weight if my diet is the same. In order to get the scale to move I usually have to scale down to a 1200 cal/day diet. I did that in 2008 and it was pretty f-ing miserable to live like that for 8 months. I'm not sure getting down to 120lbs is worth it to me.

Anyway, since we had a full day of family activities yesterday I was only able to try out a couple of bikes that were available in my size at REI - A Cannondale Women's Synapse size 51 and a Navarro Carema size Small.

I felt like the Synapse was too short but it wasn't truly uncomfortable. I felt like I was sitting up like I do on my mtb, though I know I was leaning more forward than on my mtb. I didn't like the 20 speed gearing. I felt like there could be more gears. But that might be something I have to get used to. Also, I found it incongruous that for switching gears it went like this: Big lever put it in easier gear on the right side but big lever on the left side put it in harder gear. I feel like both big levers should result in the same feel. Again, something to get used to.

The Carema is not a bike I would ever buy but I did feel a little more stretched out on it.

Here's my matrix with these two bikes added.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Brand[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Roubaix[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Moto[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Tarmac[/TD]
[TD]Cannondale Synapse[/TD]
[TD]Novarro Carema[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Size[/TD]
[TD]49[/TD]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]49[/TD]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD] 51[/TD]
[TD] Small[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Measurements[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Top Tube Length[/TD]
[TD]518[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"]537[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"]535[/TD]
[TD]540[/TD]
[TD]518[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"]537[/TD]
[TD] 52[/TD]
[TD] 52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Head Tube Length[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3333"]125[/TD]
[TD]145[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00"]110[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3333"]130[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00"]100[/TD]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD] 14.5[/TD]
[TD] unreported[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Seat Tube Angle[/TD]
[TD]75.5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6E64C"]74[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6E64C"]74[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6E64C"]74[/TD]
[TD]75.5[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6E64C"]74[/TD]
[TD] 72[/TD]
[TD] 74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Notes[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Felt cramped[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The next two posts will have photos and video of each of these two bikes.

Sabby

OK, first, Synapse.



(and, geez, I still look puffy from those meds. Oh well, it should eventually go away, though the real me is still on the thick side. Also, I had full-on cankles yesterday from lower leg swelling from that long plane ride. Normally, despite my thick legs, I have bony ankles. Not yesterday. It was gone this morning.)

This is actually a nice bike. It's aluminum but didn't feel too rough. I took it out on the road before I took the photos/videos and it went over rough patches of road nicely. Also, this specific one has 105 components. It's about $850. Just FYI.

.be
.be

Sabby

Novarro Carema (oh, the seat was too low but I didn't feel like bringing in back in)



.be
.be

Campag4life

Sabby,
The Novarro is clearly too small. Basically your position in the drops is pretty close in back angle to what it should be on the hoods...only closer in. You can't put any power down that way and your comfort will be compromised because you would be cramped.
See your pic below...money shot in profile. Contrast it with a model recreational rider on the hoods. Notice how much more stretched out the rider is...a better target. Basically you want to stretch out back behind the BB and forward on the bike for not only aerodynamics but power.

The Synapse fits better because the bars are farther away as they should be.

At the end of the day it will be your feel that will dictate what you prefer. If you go to 5 fitters, they would each set up you differently. So your position on the bike is partly dictated by how aggressive you want to ride which is a function of temperment and fitness which will also change as you ride more. So there is no destination per se but rather a process of change.

Trainer pics in profile are best versus on the street if you do try a couple more bikes like Roubaix or Tarmac. Best to place your hands on the hoods were you will spend most of your time.

You will learn a little bit more with each bike you ride. My suggestion is you can wait a bit, is ride a couple more bikes...maybe even a 54 to try a bike outside your fit margin for further perspective.
Enjoy the process.

rpenmanparker 

The Synapse looks well sized for you at first glance. I doubt the longer top tubes of some of the other bikes of interest would cause you a problem (<2 cm). To me the Carema looked smaller, but the "look" is really quick. Let's see what C4L has to say. But this is very important: a major reason why you may feel too upright is you are not bending your elbows. Doing that will help immensely both with bike position and with long riding comfort.

It is good for you to ride women specific bikes, but remember you are trying to qualify a bike to buy (Moto) that isn't. So it is important for you to ride bikes with longer top tubes to know if you can get away with that.

Welcome home.

Robert

Campag4life

I already responded. Agree the Synapse looks better.

Sabby

Hey guys!

So, I wanted to put them on a trainer but REI wouldn't do that. They would only let me take them for a spin, so I had my husband video and I did my best to provide some angles.

Both of these bikes were at the limit of what I could standover and not hurt myself if I had to land on my feet. How could I go with someone larger if I can't stand over it? Couldn't I just get one that I can stand over and then adjust the bars and seat for length?

Also, these were the only two bikes REI had I could try. The rest were too big. I did straddle a 54 but it pressed hard against the crotch.

I wanted to go out today but it's been raining hard all day and I didn't want to waste my time if a shop didn't have the ability to set up a bike on a trainer.


I'll try to get out and try a few more in the coming days. The LBS I contacted about trying a Roubaix totally blew me off. So, I will need to try somewhere else.

Campag4life

If you have your heart set on the Moto Ti...then really doesn't matter what you test other than to compare the geometry metrics which are available for all name brand bikes. It will be this basis for comparison which will help you decide. If you feel that standover maybe a consideration then you should track that metric as well. Note it with the Synapse and compare to the Moto for example. As a statistician, you know the more data you collate, the more reliable will be your data set and conclusions. So I encourage you to try different bikes and chart geometries and observations and see if they agree with one another. If you can derive the same consensus on different bikes, then your decision has been validated.
A new Ti bike is something you will have for a long time, so take your time would be my suggestion.
Why on earth wouldn't the lbs allow you to test a Roubaix?

Sabby

I will. I am specifically looking for a bike that has similar geometry to the Moto to see if I will like it. The 48cm is listed as 28.7 (I can only assume they mean inches, though everything else is cm or mm) and the 51 is listed as 29.9. I could stand over either of those. In sock feet the 29.9 would be close but in shoes I'd have probably an inch to spare.

As for the LBS, they just didn't respond to multiple emails so I figured they couldn't be bothered. In all likelihood if I showed up there they'd help me out but I'm not going to test that hypothesis. I'm just moving on.

So, I'll head over to Performance Bike tomorrow and see how the Fuji Altimara feels. It seems not too different than the Moto. I didn't see anything else they had that was close.

Oh, on the BD website it indicates it no longer has the Ti Heat (SRAM Rival components) in the 51. They do have it in the 48. If I wanted 51 I'd have to get the more expensive bike. I would be able to do it but I don't know if it's worth it...

.

rpenmanparker 

Okay, Jen so I just checked the geometry chart for the Synapse 51 cm frame and see that the actual seat tube length is only 45 cm. And that was causing you stand over problems. So you really can't go above the 48 in the Moto if that large. That is more than one inch higher top tube. I am suspecting your torso is long compared to your legs. Moto doesn't make a smaller Ti frame than 48 real seat tube length. Maybe a carbon frame from a local shop (like the Synapse) would make more sense for you at this time. About the best deal on a Ti bike I can find for you in a size is the Everti Falcon or the Lynskey Cooper from Adrenaline with Apex group for $3,200-3,000, respectively. According to your earlier post thisis way above your budget. Perhaps the best approach would be to go with a reasonably priced carbon bike now and turn it around for a Ti bike in a year or two when you can afford the change. Of all the variables fit is by far the most important. If you can get that in a bike shop stock bike for a reasonable price, that might be your best bet.

Robert

Campag4life

Well...in response:
- 1 inch standover minimum in your cycling shoes is an OK target. Some dismiss standover, but I don't. Today with sloping top tubes you can have your cake and eat it too, i.e. a nice full head tube length and still stradle the bike without issue when stopped at a light.

- many...not all bike shops don't operate like big business....they don't respond very well to emails. If you walk through the door...or at least call them and make an appointment to see if they have a given bike to test, they will respond. I wouldn't preclude any bike shops based upon lack of email response...just me.

- As to choice of bike, my credo is don't settle for something less. You will have the bike a long time and the modest upgrade cost over the long haul is a pitance. You will appreciate the higher level bike at the end of the day.

Good luck with your info gathering and most importantly enjoy the process and learning curve.

Sabby

Hey Robert, I apologize for causing confusion. The Synapse 51 was more than fine for standover height. It was the CAAD 54 that pressed hard against the crotch.

As for the Moto, assuming they mean standover height is 29.9 INCHES (they don't say exactly but what else could it be) for the 51 then I can stand over the 51 in shoes just fine. The 48 I could standover in my sock feet with room to spare. My inseam is exactly 30 inches in my sock feet. But no one rides a road bike in sock feet, so that means a 29.9 inch standover height should be okay IRL.

I think my proportions are such that my torso is slightly shorter in height to my lower body. Total height is 64.5 inches. Inseam is 30 inches. Exactly half of my body height is 32.25 inches. But your upper body doesn't start where your inseam ends. It starts at the top of your hips, which is another 5-6 inches above my inseam. So, lower body is about 35-36 inches and upper body is 28-29.5 inches.

Anyway, as for the Synapse I found it great for standover height but short top tube (520cm). If I can find one with that standover height but with a longer top tube to try that would be great.

The Moto 51 has the standover height and the top tube is 540cm. But I'm not sure 2cm is a big difference.

I think the Fuji Altimara is close so I figured I would try to get on that today.

rpenmanparker 

All good news. The Moto is back in the running. Let us know what you learn.

Robert

Campag4life

2cm is fairly significant, but you may appreciate a longer top tube length. You are clearly cramped on the S Novarro bike. Unclear without most testing if a 540mm top tube will work. Issue is...there is an interaction with head tube length. A taller head tube shortens reach. So you really need to chart both for context. In your tracking of metrics don't lose sight of stem length. Stem length can be tuned to tame top tube length...both longer and shorter..so a tuning knob to turn if necessary.

Sabby

Ok, so, we all know I really like that Moto because it's Ti. I'm probably not going to be able to shake that bias. So, my plan is to figure out if I feel like I can ride the Moto comfortably.

I think, so far, the Moto 51 would probably be the bike for me. I'm not ready to pull the trigger yet because I've only ridden two bikes and they were nothing like the Moto. Though I'd like to make the decision by this weekend.

So, in that light I think I will try to ride a few more bikes this week. The Altamira today.

Here are the specs for it, compared to Moto:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Brand[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Moto[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Fuji Altamira[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Size[/TD]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]47[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Measurements[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Top Tube Length[/TD]
[TD]535[/TD]
[TD]540[/TD]
[TD]530[/TD]
[TD]545[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Head Tube Length[/TD]
[TD]110[/TD]
[TD]130[/TD]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD]130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Seat Tube Angle[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]74.5[/TD]
[TD]73.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Notes[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Standover Height[/TD]
[TD]28.7(728.9)[/TD]
[TD]29.9(759.5)[/TD]
[TD]741.4[/TD]
[TD]760.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I converted the standover height for the Moto from inches to mm.

I figure if the Altamira 50 fits then I should be good to go, right?

Campag4life

Right. The Fuji's are an excellent basis for comparison to the Moto's you are considering. Make sure to note the stem length on the Fuji's Sabby as you take note of your riding impressions.
Well done.

Sabby

OK, will do.

The Moto stem is "Ritchey PRO Aluminum 1.125 inch steerer, 31.8 clamp." Is that a short stem? I'm not sure what to make of 1.125 inches and 31.8mm - add them together or even if that means long, short, or medium.


The Altamira stem is Oval 700 3D forged 7050 alloy, 31.8mm, +/-6 degrees

Campag4life

The spec's you referrence don't have great relevance to your fit. 1.125" is steerer dia. and 31.8mm is handlebar clamp diameter.
6 degrees have some relevance because it pertains to stem angle or rise.
You need to keep track of stem 'length'. This is the linear distance from steerer tube centerline to handlebar clamp centerline.

Generally from the factory, stem length is frame proportional. What that means is small frames have a short stem...in the 70-80mm length and biggest frames in the 120mm range. Just a fine point that will influence your impression of fit. You can email bike direct to determine what stem length they use for their two smallest frames.
HTH.

Sabby

OK, good to know. I emailed BD about the stem length. I'll bring a tape measure to measure the Altamira.