What happened to "scandium"?
05-18-13, 01:20 PM
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What happened to "scandium"?
For about five minutes it was all the rage in frames. Of course it helps to understand that this was just an exotic aluminum alloy with just a trace of scandium in it, so we are really talking about "better" aluminum frames. But they seem to have come and gone in a hurry. Wha's up with that? - Robert
05-18-13, 01:34 PM
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My bet is that the price of rare earths like Scandium have skyrocketed to the point of making it's use uneconomical. I don't really know, though.
05-18-13, 01:42 PM
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Carbon fiber.
As the OP stated, its just an aluminum alloy, and CF has pretty much replaced higher end aluminum.
As the OP stated, its just an aluminum alloy, and CF has pretty much replaced higher end aluminum.
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05-18-13, 02:00 PM
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Okay, so if I understand what you are saying, the aluminum that is left in the marketplace occupies a price point at which Sc/Al alloy can't compete. At the price that has to be charged for it, it isn't enough better than regular Al alloys to go head to head with CF. Is that right?
05-18-13, 03:44 PM
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Well. If people decided they prefer ferrous to non-ferrous metal for their bicycle frames, perhaps we could say that scandium got "steeled"; but that sounds like flaky verb-tense, so... "stolen"? Nah... that's too much like stollen, which is a Christmas-y powdered fruit cake. 
05-18-13, 03:52 PM
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Well. If people decided they prefer ferrous to non-ferrous metal for their bicycle frames, perhaps we could say that scandium got "steeled"; but that sounds like flaky verb-tense, so... "stolen"? Nah... that's too much like stollen, which is a Christmas-y powdered fruit cake.
05-18-13, 03:57 PM
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05-18-13, 04:24 PM
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Hi,
Scandium is used in quality alloy bike frames. The big
thing that didn't really happen is lithium as a fairly
high % ingredient of alloy frames, CF took over.
rgds, sreten.
Scandium is used in quality alloy bike frames. The big
thing that didn't really happen is lithium as a fairly
high % ingredient of alloy frames, CF took over.
rgds, sreten.
05-18-13, 05:55 PM
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05-18-13, 05:57 PM
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Okay, so if I understand what you are saying, the aluminum that is left in the marketplace occupies a price point at which Sc/Al alloy can't compete. At the price that has to be charged for it, it isn't enough better than regular Al alloys to go head to head with CF. Is that right?
It is more expensive as a material and harder to work with than the more common 6000 or 7000 series alloys.
05-18-13, 06:07 PM
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Incorrect.
The alloy is lighter and stronger than other alloys. It was priced out of the market.
FYI, There are still Scandium frames being made.
The alloy is lighter and stronger than other alloys. It was priced out of the market.
FYI, There are still Scandium frames being made.
05-18-13, 06:16 PM
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No and no.
Scandium makes good quality alloys easier to work with.
It makes no difference to the lightness / density of the alloy,
it does affect the strength by reducing strength reduction.
Lithium which does affect density and is harder to work
with unsurprisingly was priced out of the market by CF.
rgds, sreten.
Last edited by sreten; 05-18-13 at 06:27 PM.
05-18-13, 06:19 PM
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Perhaps the lighter was a shorthand misstatement. If it makes a stronger alloy, then thinner tubes can be used, so hence lighter.
05-18-13, 06:31 PM
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05-18-13, 06:40 PM
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Perhaps, but the real big thing that never happened was
loading the alloy with up to 30% lithium which is AFAIK
the only way of making a significantly less dense alloy.
CF kiboshed that route as the ultimate bike frame.
Scandium is still used for quality stuff as it makes it easier.
Lithium was the next big thing that CF made redundant.
rgds, sreten.
Last edited by sreten; 05-18-13 at 06:49 PM.
05-19-13, 06:07 AM
#21
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Well. If people decided they prefer ferrous to non-ferrous metal for their bicycle frames, perhaps we could say that scandium got "steeled"; but that sounds like flaky verb-tense, so... "stolen"? Nah... that's too much like stollen, which is a Christmas-y powdered fruit cake.
05-19-13, 07:36 AM
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Hi,
No and no.
Scandium makes good quality alloys easier to work with.
It makes no difference to the lightness / density of the alloy,
it does affect the strength by reducing strength reduction.
Lithium which does affect density and is harder to work
with unsurprisingly was priced out of the market by CF.
rgds, sreten.
No and no.
Scandium makes good quality alloys easier to work with.
It makes no difference to the lightness / density of the alloy,
it does affect the strength by reducing strength reduction.
Lithium which does affect density and is harder to work
with unsurprisingly was priced out of the market by CF.
rgds, sreten.
That's why there is only one top level scandium frame producer in all of Taiwan.
I gave up trying to bring a scandium cross frame to market for a variety of reasons all related to the difficulties and expenses of the material.
I stand by my INDUSTRY SPECIFIC assertion.
05-19-13, 07:54 AM
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Incorrect.
That's why there is only one top level scandium frame producer in all of Taiwan.
I gave up trying to bring a scandium cross frame to market for a variety of reasons all related to the difficulties and expenses of the material.
I stand by my INDUSTRY SPECIFIC assertion.
That's why there is only one top level scandium frame producer in all of Taiwan.
I gave up trying to bring a scandium cross frame to market for a variety of reasons all related to the difficulties and expenses of the material.
I stand by my INDUSTRY SPECIFIC assertion.
05-19-13, 09:23 AM
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^^^ Yes.
There is theory and there is industrial application (reality).
When a factory has to adjust tooling for different materials there are costs. When training and techniques differ because of materials there are costs. When there is a limited supply of a material (scandium tubing) those costs escalate based on this demand.
For a factory ANYTHING that deviates from their SOP has a cost.
I could add to this list but its bedtime.
There is theory and there is industrial application (reality).
When a factory has to adjust tooling for different materials there are costs. When training and techniques differ because of materials there are costs. When there is a limited supply of a material (scandium tubing) those costs escalate based on this demand.
For a factory ANYTHING that deviates from their SOP has a cost.
I could add to this list but its bedtime.
