How fast do you pull?
 

Maybe you think about this when riding in a paceline. Was out riding today with a couple of my buddies. We were just cruisin' and swapping some lies. We hear...on your left and here comes the freight train. We like to roll pretty good from time to time and were out for a 60 mile ride which is a mix of hammering and cruising. I recognize one of the riders in the 3 man train behind us and have ridden with him before and he is a fast guy. So we latch on. Paceline was rolling on average 23 mph or so. Most know that is OK for a decent recreational cyclist and nothing extraordinary. One rider in our new group of 6 is a racer and he can fly. He was pulling at 25mph into a bit of wind...though conditions were really ideal for fast riding today. 25 mph in a paceline isn't too bad either as most know...until its your turn to pull. :) None of us want to slow the line down when we pull. So when it was my turn I pulled at 23-24 mph for a short while. I am not a racer...just a decent cyclist who can keep up with most and not all out there. So how about you guys under similar circumstances? I know length of ride mattes as to how fast you ride in a paceline. If riding a century, most of us average riders won't be averaging 23-24 mph in a paceline for 100 miles. I know there are a few on here that can do that however. A lot of us can do it for 30 miles of course but length of ride changes things.

Let me know what you decide if joining up with a paceline. I am of the mind that hanging off the back isn't cool. If you can't pull, then don't join the group. What was funny is, this group that was really rolling I believe were a bit indignant as my friends and I are 'older'. But we are fast old guys. :) The group coming up from behind would have to ride really fast to drop us and this would take them out of their normal pace. It was kind of funny dynamic all said and my buddies and I had a good laugh afterword.

I don't understand why the group would be 'indignant', but the appropriate pace to pull at is whatever the guy in front of you is doing. Don't increase and don't slow down. If you can't maintain the pace, take a shorter pull but try and keep the speed constant.

What is annoying to riders in a paceline is if one more riders start rotating through when they are close to their limit and end up slowing down the group. This may have been a factor in your example.

Greg...can you explain how this happens?

As to indignant....some riders who ride in a dedicated group are just plain unfriendly and don't want others to join. I or my friends aren't like this and we always enjoy riders to join us but not everybody feels this way.

Fred latches on. Fred feels kinda OK sitting in the back. Fred's turn at the front comes. Fred hammers to hold the pace. Fred can't hold the pace so slows down. Guys behind him are braking, slowing down, and trying to guage what Fred is trying to do.

IME, this is exceedingly rare (so much so that I've never seen it) if the remora are able to work through and ride safely and not just accordion at the back.

If they are close to their limit they can't put out enough power to maintain the speed and they end up slowing the group down. It just ends up being disruptive to a group who may have been rolling along at a nice rhythm.

The riders in the group may have had negative experiences riding in a paceline with strangers. It could range from not being able to hold a line or not holding a steady pace or surging or any number of irritating riding habits. You'd have the same negative reaction if you barged in uninvited to a foursome of golfers and asked to play with them.

When 3 riders are rolling along at a decent pace they are getting the exact workout they want. If 6 random strangers insert themselves into the mix it completely changes the workout. For the original riders to get the same workout (similar avg power) the pace needs to increase substantially and it becomes a different type of workout where you go much harder when you are in front but have more time to recover.

edit: if you and your friends are riding at a 'chatting' pace then it doesn't matter if others join you as you are just enjoying the ride and don't really care about pace. Not everyone riding has the same objectives for every ride however.

Furthermore, you're asking the wrong question. Speed is irrelvant. It's about effort.

If they didn't invite you to hop on, you should have left them alone. That's probably why they were annoyed with you. If you can't restrain yourself, at least ask if you can join. As mentioned above, if the pace is too fast for you, take a shorter pull.

The Fred prolly is at his limit before he gets to the front and pulls. Once the wind hits him, he's cooked.

If you are with a group, and are barely hanging on, there is no disgrace in having people working the rotation stay in front of you without taking a pull. It's being at the front without having what it takes that frustrates a good line.

On the other hand, if you've just latched on to a group coming by and you just jump on and wheelsuck--well that can be pretty annoying too. So, if you're an invited guest, then its probably fine to hang at the back if necessary. If not, let 'em go.

I was 5 or 10 miles into a century and a fast paceline group of 5 or 6 guys was passing me, so I thought I'd join. Wow. We were doing 27 mph when it was my turn to pull. Just as I got to the front, there were a couple of rollers dead ahead. Of course, I popped and started slowing down, so I pulled off and fell off the back, feeling very inadequate. :cry:

If you can't keep the pace of the paceline when your turn comes, immediately pull out and rotate to the back. I'd not be happy if the group was pushing a pace and someone was slowing it down because they didn't/couldn't maintain the pace and "decided" to ride at their pace...poorly done on that person...especially if that person was a "jump on" rather than part of the group...would probably start the "drop him game"...

More of an issue is merging with a fast paceline when none of the guys know you or expect you to be there. It only makes it slightly better if you're strong enough to tow the group and pull your weight, but if you're already barely hanging on when it's your turn at the front, it's no surprise they'd be annoyed by having a random someone slow down their paceline.

I used to ride every weekend in pacelines, and I don't recall ever having a random someone jump into the middle of our group out of nowhere, even in cycle-happy SoCal. It's different if it's a hammerhead ride with a big starting group that fragments on the first big pull - in that case, lots of random groups form and break down, but even then, we never had a random single rider or duo that we passed suddenly show up in our paceline rotation.

+1

We did ask. I knew one of the guys in the other line.

Best reply I have read. Thanks. Makes the most sense. Believe the answer to my question is then...when your time to pull, pull the same speed the line has been moving in. If you don't feel you can do this, immediately rotate back such that you don't slow the momentum of the line down. Which begs the larger issue, if you can't pull in front at the pace the line, maybe consider dropping off the back completely. This is what I would do. Reason is, you are not pulling your weight and maybe shouldn't be there.

Don't know what you mean about a random someone jumping in the middle of a group. From where? Out of the sky?...lol. This is three guys joining three guys, asking and then latching on the back. Pacelines forming where I live is pretty common. What is just as common is after they form, a few riders don't seem to know how to rotate back...or what to do.

There are all different levels, and no foul in that. There will always be faster riders, right up to the pro level. Pro's get dropped too keep in mind. It is also a mentality thing. If you as a rider are all about not getting dropped, then you will hang on harder. Most of us that don't race, don't want to work that hard. I have been in pacelines at the speed. Pulls of 27mph which I go anaerobic at pretty quickly. These pacelines tend to devolve and fracture pretty quickly because everybody is trying to drop the other guys unless they are all CAT 1's or 2's. Some may like this challenge, and others may find it more painful than it is worth.

In that case, try harder halfspeed. :)

Thanks for your response. Makes sense. And some guys are just picky and others not so much. A couple of things. It isn't like playing golf. I grew up playing golf. :) Yes a chatting pace isn't a purposeful training pace. It it were, we would have been dropped. We weren't. Quite right, objectives can be quite different and in this case initially they were. Riders joining pacelines and keeping pace is pretty common in my experience. Discussion here is about general etiquette and thanks for your input.

You're not getting it. The point isn't to pull at "the same speed". The point is to maintain a consistent effort. Speed is only a proxy for effort on table flat terrain with no wind.

Absolutely correct, on my rides we declare & check wattage before allowing anyone on board the train, then we yell at them.

Most of the pace lines I've been involved with likes everyone to rotate even if you drop off the front immediately.

But good question. There are lots of training rides around here where both independents and people from other teams ride by themselves. Most groups don't mind others joining in as long as they know what they are doing.

RPE is quite sufficient for this.

This.

But since you did ask and knew the guy, you pull at the same speed as the rider in front of you. If you can't pull at that speed, hold it until he's off and then pull off yourself.

Don't open a gap in front of you to allow the guy drifting back to come in. He may may need a rest and wants to get to the back, and the folks behind you may be able to pull so you end up disrupting the paceline. Instead, rotate through smoothly, just don't spend any longer at the front than you can, but make sure to give the guy that just pulled off enough time to at least get behind you. You don't want to take out his front wheel by pulling off too soon.

Keep it smooth and the paceline will flow nicely. Stay predictable to keep it all safe.

Hard core riders generally have this information tattoo'ed on their foreheads. The unfortunate reality is...many embellish their numbers and so its hard to determine if they should be allowed to join the train. I will tell you what is a bit annoying. When guys on mopeds join the paceline. But even this is nuanced. Electrical mopeds are the best to ride with...no noise or pollution. When riding behind a gas moped isn't healthy for a long ride. Also, if people are yelling, its hard to hear this over the sound of a gas moped.