lazerzxr

I have overlap on one of my bikes, on the odd occasion I want to turn tight at low speed I just drop my heel which rotates my toe well out of the way, and that's with about 1cm of overlap. It really isn't important. Also the amount of overlap you will get is dependent on things like the stack height of the pedal and shoe, crank length and even what tires you use. Don't worry about it, if the bike fits overall you won't have a problem

datlas 

Correct.

aramis

I can't remember the last bike I had that didn't toe overlap. I wear size 13 shoes and use 175 cranks though. I wonder if those ZINN bikes with 200 mm cranks are really bad about it.

Just have to watch it with track stands and doing weird stuff like going around 180 deg bends in pathways onto pedestrian bridges. It's really a non issue like has been said a dozen times or so.

TromboneAl

I'll go against the tide and say that I find toe overlap to be a big pain.

My current bike is the first one with toe overlap, which I discovered by making a u-turn on a narrow road on a hill. Turned the wheel, crank came forward, turned the wheel back, and crash, down I went.

OK, now I knew about it, but old habits die hard, and it takes a while before it stops biting you. Be aware that when you make tight, slow U-turns, you are often right in front of someone.

OK, so now you know about it, and you practice thinking about which foot should be forward when, and you practice ratcheting the pedals instead of turning them. It's still a bother. Last week, the chain dropped off in the middle of the road while making a slow u-turn, probably due to the ratcheting (and back pedaling). Mid-turn, and the pedals free-wheel. Almost joined club tombay right there on the center line.

If you ask a seller to measure it for you, their response should be "Sure, back in a minute."

StanSeven

No need to back pedal. Just stop pedaling. Also if you drop your chain doing that, something is wrong.

oldbobcat

I'm really sorry that I can't participate in your anger at bicycle manufacturers and bicycle shop employees for not dealing with your issue exactly as you would have them deal with it. On the other hand, more concern and less dismissiveness from bike shop employees would be reasonable.

If you had come to the shop where I work expressing concern for toe overlap, I would certainly help you find a bike that satisfies your desires. But the components of toe overlap are distance between the front axle and the bottom bracket, crank length, wheel diameter, tire width, the rider's foot size, how much of the rider's foot is forward of the pedal spindle, and to a small extent the rider's preferred "q-factor." Bike manufacturers have total control over the first two, so getting it right would have to involve some test fitting and riding. And I could probably tell you right off the bat which bikes I know would not work for you. Could you accept that?

bikepro

Perhaps not, however before the Military Academies started admitting female cadets in 1976, the tailor at the Military Academy at West Point would ask all incoming cadets if they "dressed left or right" when tailoring their uniforms. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0230625AA1FJ6f

tickerguy

Yes.

All I really need is an answer in inches (or millimeters; pick your units) from the pedal axle to the back of the tire when the crank is pointed at the axle. I know exactly where my cleats are mounted, of course, since they're on my shoes (I'm not starting from zero here; I ride with clipless pedals now.) If you have the bike in front of you and a ruler it takes less than 10 seconds to obtain that measurement.

Either it clears or it doesn't. My current hybrid does (easily.) I know the Diamondback Podium 2 in the 56cm size does not (and assume the others in the series don't either since they're all allegedly identical in geometry) because I've ridden one. The problem is that getting the answer for one specific bike series and year doesn't help me on a comparative basis because I've run the Front-Center number on a bike where I know I do clear but numerically the answer I get says it does not. My cleats did not move and the tire does not hit my shoe therefore either (1) the crank length as published .vs. delivered is wrong, (2) the tire diameter as claimed .vs. delivered is wrong, (3) the F-C distance listed is inaccurate (possibly due to a fork rake change since publication?) or some combination of the above. After all subtraction isn't exactly difficult. Unfortunately the owner of the bike in question where I didn't have the issue isn't someone I know well at all so trying to figure out why the math doesn't fit experience is unlikely to be possible. Worse, the F-C spec from one model year to the next for that particular bike changed slightly.

I want a road bike but I do not want an overlap issue. I have no reason to pay a shop markup if they don't have the bike I want to buy and thus can't answer definitively what that particular measurement is on the bike they intend to sell me, with the tires and crank that are on it as it will go out the door. I understand mid-year changes happen in various models as suppliers change from time to time for various components and this might change geometry slightly. If it's close that might be enough to matter.

That's all this is, really, and that a request for the measurement so I can figure out whether the issue exists for me on a given bicycle was met not with a straight-up 5 second answer but instead all sorts of arm-waving and dismissal of my question tells me everything I needed to know about whether my wallet should come out or snap shut and remain in my pocket. I have no reason to drive to a shop to look at and ride a given bike if it doesn't meet this requirement as I'm not going to like it. That I already know because of my ride on the Diamondback.

The people in this business who complain about the Internet destroying retail outlets ought to think long and hard about people just like me who have been driven out of their stores by this sort of garbage, with a big contributor being the lack of stock and thus the inability to simply walk over to the bike in the rack and measure it for me. Never mind the Internet folks who don't want to perform 30 seconds of work as well. Whether the excuse is that the bikes are in the warehouse and you'd have to call Jack over there to check for you or that you simply don't have them at all doesn't really matter; the fact is that the question is dismissed instead of being answered.

I don't care whether overlap bothers you -- it bothers me, and I'm the one who wants to spend money in the transaction in question. I'll pay for good, local service but I'm not going to hand someone a 40% markup to be nothing more than an order-taker who has no stock in the building and thus can't answer my question because he doesn't have the product to go take a look and is just going to punch my order into an Internet-linked terminal at the manufacturer or distributor anyway!

If you want to sell products priced at more than the median gross weekly income in the United States at retail and ask a retail-level markup on them you darn well better have them in stock and available to answer questions when a customer comes knocking on the door with money in his hand.

Oh, and by the way, to the person up-thread who asked about tailors -- if yours does not ask if you dress "left" or "right" when marking up your suit pants you're not buying even moderately-expensive, say much less hand-tailored suits. Every one of the suits in my closet was marked up and fit with this question having been asked and answered.

RUOkie

OP, get a custom bike. Just like your suits.


I effin' love the 41

halfspeed

There's a common phrase for a bike shop that stocks at least one of every size and model bike he sells: "Out of Business".

Bob Dopolina 

That actually can be a factor for size 13 folks but the OP is a size 11 on a 56cm frame.

Not. An. Issue.

oldbobcat

I, as a bike shop employee, should be more concerned about your concerns than my own preferences. We agree on that. Front center could be helpful, but it isn't the whole story because of bottom bracket drop and tire size. I can't do anything about prices because my employers care too much about margin and the brand cares too much about what we're advertising these things for. But I can scope bike for you.

So, you're looking for a 56, that will most likely be furnished with 172.5 mm cranks. We sell Trek, Raleigh, Scott, Bianchi, and we have some Podiums on clearance. Right away I'm going to eliminate the Podiums and Trek, unless you might be interested in a Domane 4. Tell me your price range and what number you're looking for and if that's with the wheel aimed straight ahead or in line with the inside edge, outside edge, or midpoint of the pedal. I'll tell you which bikes we have that meet your requirement.

We don't sell Specialized, but I'd suggest looking at their Secteur and Roubaix.

justkeepedaling

I disagree. He definitely needs custom

oldbobcat

Don't interrupt. I'm practicing to be the customer-oriented salesman. I want to see if there's anything on our floor that will work.

megalowmatt

It's a little-known fact that the words "toe overlap" were part of the original lyrics to the song "Come Together". Sadly, the entire phase was removed because it didn't rhyme.

Oddly enough, these very words have been used over the years as part of the "before and after" puzzle on Wheel of Fortune.

oldbobcat

And one and one and one is three.

gsa103

Crank length is almost always a published spec. Tire diameter will vary by a <2 mm for a 700x23, so it doesn't really matter. Use the tires on your current bike as a reference.

If you want to measure it in a store, measure it in a store.

JimF22003

I'm in the "it's not that important" camp, BUT

I do have to admit I've been caught/surprised three or four times when climbing some really steep stuff while standing (like 16-20% grades.) At that point I'm barely moving anyway, so if I make a very sharp turn of the bars (to try to slalom up the grade for example, or around a steep switchback) I can catch the wheel with my foot. It's never made me fall yet, but I've come close a couple of times.

dalava

As I read this, I hear Lewis Black in my head.

LowCel 

On the paperwork when purchasing an IF I believe it does ask if you prefer toe-overlap or not. That may be a good route to go. IF makes amazing frames. They also ask if you pedal while turning.

jsharr

If he wants a tip, the tailor could just cut it off when doing the inseam.

Bluechip

I ride mostly 56cm frames. I am 5'10.5" with a size 11.5 shoe. I couldn't tell you whether or not any of my bikes have toe overlap or not. For me and most others it's not an issue. For you it is and that's fine. You can't expect BD to go and measure a frame that is unassembled in a box. Not gonna happen! There are reasons they sell for so cheap. That's just one of them. Also, if you really believe that the LBS's are making 40% on each bike they sell you are mistaken. I also find it hard to believe you can't find a 56cm in stock anywhere. I've never walked into any decent sized shop and couldn't find a 56. I think 54 and 56 are the two most sold size frames out there. Just try looking for a bike that will fit my wife (<5'0") and see how hard that is.

If Oldbobcat is willing to help out in your search without any chance of making a sale then I think you should take him up on it. He sounds like his shop would be the kind of shop you are looking for. I would bet that most shops will be more than willing to help you out if you explain your concerns. You either have hit the jackpot on poorly run shops or you must not be expressing your desire's in a clear manner. Good luck and good riding.

WhyFi

Or the shop employees have reason to believe that the ROI isn't likely to be worth it.

tickerguy

4", pedal axle to wheel with the wheel aligned with the inside corner of the pedal. That will (just) clear, worst-case. My current hybrid bike measures nearly 5.5". If it's REAL close (either way) then of course the acid test is to ride the bike.

The Podium series (Diamondback) doesn't list Front-Center but if you take Wheelbase (1012) less chainstay (405mm) less crank (172.5) less half wheel (350) you get 84.5mm. That's overstating the clearance since it does not adjust for bottom bracket drop, but comes up 3.33" and I know factually that it doesn't clear (since I rode it.)

Here's one of the problems though I have with simply using published numbers. Cannondale's Synapse, which has a difference in the 2013 and 2012 listings and on which I rode a 2012 that did clear, shows Front-Center of 604mm. 604 - 172.5 - 350 = 81.5, or 3.21". Well, 3.21" will not clear and I assure you my cleats did not magically move themselves. What's worse is that there's a 2012 chart floating around on the net that claims the F/C distance for that bike is 5mm shorter. While many so-called "700c" tires are in fact really 680 or 690 in mounted diameter that doesn't account for nearly enough difference and I doubt the arc of the front tire at that deflection accounts for 0.8" either. I can sit down with my calculator and figure out the exact correction for arc if I know the Q factor of the cranks but that's typically not published so I'd have to guess.

It's easier (and more accurate) to measure instead of guess and what I'm finding from looking at geometry information is that I can't come up with an accurate go/no-go using what the manufacturers publish.

Looking for a bike in the $1,200 range +/- $200 depending on group. My perusal of the market tells me I'm on an alloy frame with carbon fork and that it's possible to get into the 105 group (which I want) although there may be some compromises there (e.g. Tiagra front derailleur, etc) in doing so.

StanSeven

This entire thread borders on crazy. If someone has fit concerns, buy from a LBS and try out the bikes first. If you get a bike online like Bikes Direct, you shouldn't expect the same. That's one reason why BD is cheaper.