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Training for climbing question

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Training for climbing question

Old 09-08-13, 05:43 PM
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mike12
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Training for climbing question

I'm thinking about doing an event near the end of October with 3 steep climbs (or at least steep for me). The specifics for the 3 climbs are as follows in this order of the ride:

First climb: 4 miles, 1,813 elevation gain
Second climb: 1.4 miles, 805 elevation gain
Third climb: 2.4 miles, 977 elevation gain

The event is about 2-2.5 hours from my house so it's hard to train on these exact climbs and there are no climbs near where I live that have the same % grade.

Anyway, I rode the first climb today. I was very winded at the top and the legs were burning. I used my lowest gear for the vast majority of the climb and was able to keep a cadence of 74. My watts/kg for the 34 minutes it took me was 3.59 which is over my 60 minute FTP. I certainly do not feel that I could have made it up the other two climbs after finishing the first one. Also, I'm using a compact crank.

My question is: is there any way to conserve energy during the climb that I'm not aware of since I'm already in my lowest gear? Would my endurance be better if I lowered my cadence and slowed down on the climb - if I lower my cadence I'm afraid my legs will just burn up quicker.

I know I need to train more. I just want to make sure that I'm attacking the climbs as efficiently as possible to ensure completion of all 3 climbs.
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Old 09-08-13, 06:55 PM
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If you need to conserve energy on a climb you need to go slower.

Get a lower gear.
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Old 09-08-13, 06:59 PM
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Sit, stand, sit, stand, take a break, sit, stand, sit, stand
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Old 09-08-13, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
If you need to conserve energy on a climb you need to go slower.

Get a lower gear.
I'm researching gearing right now. I may just put a MB cassette on for this event.
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Old 09-08-13, 07:21 PM
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Hi,

A slow cadence up a hill is simply slower and less power output, so your legs won't
burn up quicker. If you can do 74 rpm going at a lower rpm will be easier. Only if
you can do say only 55 rpm in your lowest gear because its too high is low cadence
bad for for going up hills. Another tip is drop to your lowest gear before you really
need to. Many people tackle a hill in too high a gear at the bottom, dropping gears
as they tire. It is much better not to tire using an easier gear at the bottom.

rgds, sreten.

FWIW if you can do 74 rpm up that hill I don't think you need lower gearing.
I think you need lower gearing if you are struggling to hit about 60 rpm.

Meanwhile a few hills a day is a good option. Don't have to be long, can be very short.
I'm working on hills at the moment, and a lot of it is the short trips on my folder taking
in a few short, sharp hills on every trip.

Last edited by sreten; 09-08-13 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 09-08-13, 07:22 PM
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Forget the research. Find some local climbs, any elevation will do. If it is too short do repeats, if it's long, do repeats. Oh and climb a bunch until October. Seek out some elevation and just keep doing it
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Old 09-08-13, 07:51 PM
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Hi

I highly recommend finding some comparable climbs and trying to find the right cadence. Riding home I have a 12% 1 mile climb. It took me two years (yes, I know, I am slow) to get to a stage where I can climb this hill and have a conversation at a speed of 8-10mph.
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Old 09-08-13, 08:16 PM
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Been riding Road Bikes for 25+ years, and the only way I know to train for hills is to attack hills. I like hills, they make you strong. Living in Tennessee, if you ride, you will do hills. LOL
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Old 09-08-13, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
If you need to conserve energy on a climb you need to go slower.

Get a lower gear.
It's as simple as that. It's either that or get a lot stronger between now and October 3, which isn't likely. If you use the same gear at a lower cadence I doubt you're going to feel any better. I'd feel worse, personally.
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Old 09-08-13, 08:19 PM
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Climbing is half mental... if you know the route you'll be more comfortable on the day of your event. You'll find that the second time you go up that hill, you'll feel better about it. If you need relief in the middle of a long climb, you can stand for a bit and pedal, or you can just slow way the heck down. You don't want to pedal at 40 rpm for hours but for a few minutes you might get some relief. Try to ride up those other two climbs, even if it's not on the same day - you'll appreciate the familiarity.
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Old 09-08-13, 08:44 PM
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For what it's worth, you'll be slower on the next climb, but you will complete it and the rest of the event. You'll recover some on the descent and approach to the second climb. You might want to be sure you're not going too deep on the first climb so you're not more fatigued than you need to be the rest of the ride. That second climb might be steeper though shorter. Look at something like Strava to see what other cyclists did on those climbs last year.

And you'll get stronger over the next month as you focus on climbing, before you taper the last couple of weeks.
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Old 09-08-13, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mike12 View Post
I'm thinking about doing an event near the end of October with 3 steep climbs (or at least steep for me). The specifics for the 3 climbs are as follows in this order of the ride:

First climb: 4 miles, 1,813 elevation gain
Second climb: 1.4 miles, 805 elevation gain
Third climb: 2.4 miles, 977 elevation gain

The event is about 2-2.5 hours from my house so it's hard to train on these exact climbs and there are no climbs near where I live that have the same % grade.


Anyway, I rode the first climb today. I was very winded at the top and the legs were burning. I used my lowest gear for the vast majority of the climb and was able to keep a cadence of 74. My watts/kg for the 34 minutes it took me was 3.59 which is over my 60 minute FTP. I certainly do not feel that I could have made it up the other two climbs after finishing the first one. Also, I'm using a compact crank.

My question is: is there any way to conserve energy during the climb that I'm not aware of since I'm already in my lowest gear? Would my endurance be better if I lowered my cadence and slowed down on the climb - if I lower my cadence I'm afraid my legs will just burn up quicker.

I know I need to train more. I just want to make sure that I'm attacking the climbs as efficiently as possible to ensure completion of all 3 climbs.
Do you have a power meter and actually know your FTP. Assuming yes, how much were you over your FTP? You should be able to ride at FTP continuously for one hour. Just ride the climbs at tempo or 10 to 15 watts below FTP. You should be able to do all three without a problem considering you will have some recovery between climbs.
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Old 09-08-13, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mike12 View Post
I'm thinking about doing an event near the end of October with 3 steep climbs (or at least steep for me). The specifics for the 3 climbs are as follows in this order of the ride:

First climb: 4 miles, 1,813 elevation gain
Second climb: 1.4 miles, 805 elevation gain
Third climb: 2.4 miles, 977 elevation gain

The event is about 2-2.5 hours from my house so it's hard to train on these exact climbs and there are no climbs near where I live that have the same % grade.

Anyway, I rode the first climb today. I was very winded at the top and the legs were burning. I used my lowest gear for the vast majority of the climb and was able to keep a cadence of 74. My watts/kg for the 34 minutes it took me was 3.59 which is over my 60 minute FTP. I certainly do not feel that I could have made it up the other two climbs after finishing the first one. Also, I'm using a compact crank.

My question is: is there any way to conserve energy during the climb that I'm not aware of since I'm already in my lowest gear? Would my endurance be better if I lowered my cadence and slowed down on the climb - if I lower my cadence I'm afraid my legs will just burn up quicker.

I know I need to train more. I just want to make sure that I'm attacking the climbs as efficiently as possible to ensure completion of all 3 climbs.
You pretty much answered your own question. If you were very winded and legs burning, then there was no compensation. you would need to slow something down.
Good news is that there is certain recovery once you've topped a climb, and depending on what it takes to get to the next one, and the one after that, you may be able to recover enough to get decent form for each climb. But steep climbs are killers on the legs.
I would: get another lower gear or 2. Not jackrabbit the first climb, start each climb at a comfortable pace/cadence. Get the climb profiles for each climb even if you don;t get to pre-ride, and plan how you can effectively get past the steepest sections and still carry some steady cadence.
Not worry when you have to drop cadence a bit, or when you have to get out of the saddle for extended sections.
I would also do a gel on the approach to each climb, and one when I top each climb. Best aid to recovery is on downhills when the legs can recover quickest.
You seem to know yourself well enough to know when you've gone past a solid recovery - if your'e gonna go hard enough to blow up, I would make sure it's on the last climb and not before.
Steep, 1,000 ft+ climbs are a killer, unlike steep rollers, yo just can;t power over another 300 ft vertical if you've blown up. And you will lose way more time in the struggle than if you did a more moderate approach to pacing the entire climb.
Rider, know thyself...

Last edited by cyclezen; 09-08-13 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 09-08-13, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mike12 View Post
I'm thinking about doing an event near the end of October with 3 steep climbs (or at least steep for me). The specifics for the 3 climbs are as follows in this order of the ride:

First climb: 4 miles, 1,813 elevation gain
Second climb: 1.4 miles, 805 elevation gain
Third climb: 2.4 miles, 977 elevation gain

The event is about 2-2.5 hours from my house so it's hard to train on these exact climbs and there are no climbs near where I live that have the same % grade.

Anyway, I rode the first climb today. I was very winded at the top and the legs were burning. I used my lowest gear for the vast majority of the climb and was able to keep a cadence of 74. My watts/kg for the 34 minutes it took me was 3.59 which is over my 60 minute FTP. I certainly do not feel that I could have made it up the other two climbs after finishing the first one. Also, I'm using a compact crank.

My question is: is there any way to conserve energy during the climb that I'm not aware of since I'm already in my lowest gear? Would my endurance be better if I lowered my cadence and slowed down on the climb - if I lower my cadence I'm afraid my legs will just burn up quicker.

I know I need to train more. I just want to make sure that I'm attacking the climbs as efficiently as possible to ensure completion of all 3 climbs.
If you can do 3.6 watts/kg for 34 minutes then just slow down at some point on the climb and then ramp it up.

Honestly if you can do that power I'm surprised you're complaining about doing those two other climbs, because that's pretty high power output for someone to be worrying about climbs like that.
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Old 09-08-13, 10:20 PM
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I alternate sitting and spinning circles (hopefully) at a decent cadence with standing and cranking. It's a real relief to stand up; the legs get a stretch. I'm no goat, but that's what I do, and since the OP doesn't talk about standing I thought I'd mention it.
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Old 09-08-13, 10:28 PM
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Even if the hills near you aren't as steep as the ones on the event, do what you can with what's near you. Even if it means riding up to the top of your nearest hill, turning around, and riding back down to ride back up again.
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Old 09-09-13, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mike12 View Post
Anyway, I rode the first climb today. I was very winded at the top and the legs were burning. I used my lowest gear for the vast majority of the climb and was able to keep a cadence of 74. My watts/kg for the 34 minutes it took me was 3.59 which is over my 60 minute FTP. I certainly do not feel that I could have made it up the other two climbs after finishing the first one. Also, I'm using a compact crank.
My personal best 34 minute power is only somewhere around 3.1 w/kg but I can climb all day. I did several centuries with 9000'+ of elevation gain this year. If you can do 3.59, you can climb like a mountain goat, all you need is the right equipment. Numbers you provided seem to indicate that your current cassette tops out around 25T. The first climb is pretty steep (1800' in 4 miles is 8.5% average) and a 25T cassette is not going to work so well there. Get the biggest cassette that you can. 28T would almost certainly work without other changes (might need a new chain though).
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Old 09-09-13, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Do you have a power meter and actually know your FTP. Assuming yes, how much were you over your FTP? You should be able to ride at FTP continuously for one hour. Just ride the climbs at tempo or 10 to 15 watts below FTP. You should be able to do all three without a problem considering you will have some recovery between climbs.
Yes, I have a power meter. My 60 minute FTP is 213. For the climb I was at 222. I'm a relatively light guy.

The 10-15 watts below FTP comment is exactly why I have the question. I'd rather be able to maintain a good cadence at 10-15 watts below FTP or find some other approach to the climbs.

I did do some interval work yesterday, so maybe there was a little fatigue carried over.
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Old 09-09-13, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hamster View Post
My personal best 34 minute power is only somewhere around 3.1 w/kg but I can climb all day. I did several centuries with 9000'+ of elevation gain this year. If you can do 3.59, you can climb like a mountain goat, all you need is the right equipment. Numbers you provided seem to indicate that your current cassette tops out around 25T. The first climb is pretty steep (1800' in 4 miles is 8.5% average) and a 25T cassette is not going to work so well there. Get the biggest cassette that you can. 28T would almost certainly work without other changes (might need a new chain though).
My cassette is a 12-30 so it looks like our numbers just don't match. I'm pulling my data right off an interval from the powertap software.

These are just steeper climbs than I'm accustomed to. If I can get my cadence to a little over 80 on a less step climb, I can go quite a while also.

I'll work hard for a month at climbs and then assess any progress. At that point I'll still have 4 weeks to decide on whether or not to get MB gearing. I guess I could always just stop on the climbs to catch my breath but I really, really don't want to take that approach.

Last edited by mike12; 09-09-13 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 09-09-13, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mike12 View Post
Yes, I have a power meter. My 60 minute FTP is 213. For the climb I was at 222. I'm a relatively light guy.

The 10-15 watts below FTP comment is exactly why I have the question. I'd rather be able to maintain a good cadence at 10-15 watts below FTP or find some other approach to the climbs.

I did do some interval work yesterday, so maybe there was a little fatigue carried over.
To cut about 15% off your power, with identical gearing your cadence will drop about 15% also. Which would put you in the lower 60s for rpm.

With the three long climbs in your ride, I'd say you don't want to be doing that at FTP. The posts recommending you "attack" those hills are a bit bat-**** crazy. Your idea to climb at 90-95% FTP is much better.

Since you're unlikely to up your FTP by 30W in under a month, I'd say you should start looking into lower gearing now so you can get used to it, and also to have time to work out any mechanical kinks that may arise.
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Old 09-09-13, 07:15 AM
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I'd start with an easy question first, and then practice with some more difficult ones, finally working your way into a climbing question...oh wait, never mind.
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Old 09-09-13, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mike12 View Post
My cassette is a 12-30 so it looks like our numbers just don't match. I'm pulling my data right off an interval from the powertap software.
Yes, they don't match. I assumed it was a steady 8.5% grade. I just found the climb you're referring to and it has two flatter sections near the beginning and end, and most of the climb is 10-11%. That's a different story.

Practice low-cadence, high-power work. Once you're there, try to alternate sitting and standing. It's OK to take breaks.
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Old 09-09-13, 10:44 AM
  #23  
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Is this event you're preparing for a race or a ride? If it's a ride, just ride a bit slower. Also, is it short and hilly or is it a longer ride that just happens to have 3 climbs? You have both the legs and the gearing for this type of climbing and it won't be a big deal unless you go too hard on the first one and have nothing left for later.

Your legs will absolutely not burn up quicker if you drop your cadence, it will only get a little easier to pedal. The reason some people with low cadences burn up their legs is more because they're pushing too hard in too high a gear.

If you really want to do the ride the most efficient way possible, you need to do the actual ride because there will be specific conditions that you can take advantage of and you can figure out how to plan your effort. But just eyeballing the info you've provided, take it easy on the first climb and ramp up your effort as you go.
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Old 09-09-13, 10:53 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by mike12 View Post
Yes, I have a power meter. My 60 minute FTP is 213. For the climb I was at 222. I'm a relatively light guy.

The 10-15 watts below FTP comment is exactly why I have the question. I'd rather be able to maintain a good cadence at 10-15 watts below FTP or find some other approach to the climbs.

I did do some interval work yesterday, so maybe there was a little fatigue carried over.
I recently climbed Mount Ventoux which for me was a high tempo/SST power climb. To train, I rode a lot of tempo power and the longer the better. Do some one hour or more tempo rides on any terrain you have and bias the cadence down to the projected climbing cadence for part of the ride. However, NO REST on the tempo rides and do not let the power go below tempo. If you can hold 10 to 15 watts below FTP even better. Just watch that you do not get too much fatigue.
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Old 09-09-13, 11:01 AM
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Ride as many hills (or sprints if you live in Florida) as possilble between now and the october climbing events. Also drop 5 pounds! It makes a huge difference.

If needed do some lunges and deadlifts to help with the back muscles you dont use often.
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