koolerb

So I just read most of my November issue of Bicycling magazine and the article about Strava got me squirming in my seat a little. I'm not going to sumarize the article here, but for those that have read it what do you think? I really like Strava and the ability to compete against other riders on segments, including downhill segments. It's the responsibility of anyone riding a bike to do it safely. It bothered me that so many people seem to placing responsibility on Strava for unsafe riders.

Cookiemonsta

I have not read specific articles but I have read articles and comments like it. One family even sued Strava ( or at least that is what the article says) because a guy died after trying to beat the person that beat his record on a segment.

I agree with you, cyclists should behave responsibly. Same goes for those people who run a red light on an intersection to keep their average km/h high. It is all stupid. I do not think it is Strava's fault. In the end people themselves are responsible for the way they conduct themselves in traffic. Though there is something to be said about the app providing an incentive for people to behave irresponsibly. I will be honest, and say that I too try to do well in some segments. I only use it as motivation to push myself, but not as a reason to take additional risk. That is just stupid. There is a difference between riding fast by keeping a good pace, and riding recklessly. The two do not need to go hand in hand.

Dudelsack 

Wow. I said people need to exercise common sense on Strava segments on a recent thread and got called a coffin-dodging troll with a second from a moderator. Sorry I said a word.

gadabout007

Just playing devils advocate here...

Could you imagine the outrage if Strava were to open a sister site where drivers of motorized vehicles raced against one another the same as we do one city streets? Exceeding the posted speed limit is not terribly difficult on a bicycle. There are several segments in my neck of the woods that require you to exceed the speed limit by 20 to 30 kph just to get into the top three. Sometimes they get flagged, most times they don't. If someone were to be injured or killed on a segment like that, I don't see how Strava couldn't be found at least partly liable

thehammerdog

people can be tools! i luv strava and i would never think to blame anyone for making a choice to ride anywhere! idiots!!

znomit

I think I can see your problem

prathmann

I don't think Strava has much reason to be concerned about lawsuits by the cyclists or their families, such as in the case locally where the family sued after the cyclist crashed on a descent of South Park Rd. In such cases the cyclist is clearly to blame and Strava should be able to win any legal case.

But consider if a child walking home from school is struck by a cyclist who just got a Strava email that they had lost their KOM status on some segment and urging them to try and regain it. If the parents of the child heard about the Strava involvement I could certainly see how they would consider the company to be partially responsible even if the primary responsibility would be with the reckless cyclist. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Strava were found to be partly responsible and assigned their fraction of any judgement.

mrivard

Liability? I don't think so, either way, a simple waiver before using strava could indemnify them of all liability right?

koolerb

Strava just a tool, a really useful tool. There are a lot of ways people can use it, training aide, motivational tool, etc. That's what makes it so useful. How people choose to use it is up to them. But the operator of the bike is responsible for it's safe operation, period.

prathmann

If you were out cycling on one of these hypothetical segments and were struck and seriously injured by a car driver trying to get a top rating would you still feel that the company encouraging such motor vehicle racing on public streets bears no responsibility? And if the driver is uninsured and unable to compensate you for uncovered medical costs, lost wages, and legitimate pain&suffering expenses you wouldn't try to collect a judgement from the company that made a profit by encouraging the driver's reckless behavior?

The situation is essentially the same if a cyclist is encouraged by Strava to engage in risky riding to gain a KOM and ends up injuring or killing a pedestrian who is legally crossing the street in a cross walk. In neither case would the injured party have been the one signing a waiver or even been aware that they were in an area regarded by others as an unofficial race course.

koolerb

The driver would be at fault.

prathmann

Sure, we're in complete agreement on that. But you didn't answer the question asked - "And if the driver is uninsured and unable to compensate you for uncovered medical costs, lost wages, and legitimate pain&suffering expenses you wouldn't try to collect a judgement from the company that made a profit by encouraging the driver's reckless behavior?"

I expect that most of us would in fact seek a judgement against such a company and would be likely to prevail if it went to a civil court proceeding.

We did have something similar locally when an online magazine published an article encouraging readers to spend their weekend renting a sports car and driving fast on specific mountain roads in our area (Redwood, Skyline, and Pinehurst for those familiar with the East Bay of N. Cal.) that are popular cycling routes. The author even mentioned coming around a turn on the wrong side of the road and just barely avoiding a head-on collision with other traffic but still encouraged his readers to drive in the same fashion. The article got considerable discussion in our bicycle club and I don't remember anyone defending the magazine for publishing this type of article. Several of us sent emails objecting to their publication of it. They did apologize and I haven't seen any similar articles there since then.

gadabout007

Not necessarily. Law is never so black and white. Waivers only cover assumed risk... volenti non fit injuria to a willing person, injury is not done. Negligence is a whole other animal.

Nachoman

The brownshirts have been taking themselves very seriously lately. This is very serious bidness.

Smokehouse

Like most things in life...Strava can be useful in moderation.

its great software for plotting progress and for challenging you to push yourself just a little harder than last time.

he problem is, like usual, the morons. The ones that take it too seriously and hurt themselves or worse, others.

I look at it this way, if we get rid of things that the idiot few (or idiot masses) abuse, we'd damn near abolish everything.


On a related note...I REFUSE to attempt strava decent records...no freaking way. I have a strict 40 mph speed limit that I apply to myself for my safety as well as others. This is not something I expect others to do...I just do it for myself.

koolerb

Strava isn't encouraging anyone to ride recklassly. It's just a training tool. The goal for many using it is to get faster. Faster doesn't mean recklass. Indiviuals using the tool need to excersize good judment.

jon c. 

Was riding up my road the other day and saw a car coming the other way with their flashers on. As they reached me I realized there was a guy on a bike drafting behind them. Couldn't help but wonder if he was trying to beat a Strava time. I'm too slow to worry about Strava, but it's a popular road with club riders so I expect there are posted times for it.

prathmann

You're still not answering my question. You're out on a nice quiet bike ride and suddenly a car comes racing around a corner cutting it so he's in your lane and too close for you to react. You get seriously injured and are out for substantial medical bills, are out of work so you fall behind in house payments, etc. and may never fully recover. Then you (or your lawyer) finds out that just before the driver left home he had gotten an email from some company (like Strava but for motorists) that he had just lost his top ranking on that section of road by a few seconds and encouraging him to go out and try to get it back.

Now, as asked before: "if the driver is uninsured and unable to compensate you for uncovered medical costs, lost wages, and legitimate pain&suffering expenses wouldn't you try to collect a judgement from the company that made a profit by encouraging the driver's reckless behavior?"

And the followup question is: would your answer be any different if the injured party was your kid walking home from school and crossing the street in a crosswalk when a bicyclist came speeding around the corner head down and intent on regaining a Strava KOM after getting an email from them. Again you're out substantial uncovered medical bills, your kid is hospitalized for a long time and may never fully recover. If the cyclist doesn't have much liability insurance or assets to compensate you for your kid's long-term care, would you file a suit against both him and Strava?

Alloyrider

just a thought.. Strava does not make the segments. other riders do. So.. I guess if it was a choice between Strava or the segment originator, I would think it would be the segment creator. even though I don't think either should be liable.

mrivard

you seem to be comparing driving recklessly and illegally to riding a bicycle. Regardless, in the example above the fault lies with the driver and nowhere else, the aftermath and financial aspect of of it is irrelevant. Just going after whomever has the most money can work in court to be sure, but it is a stretch to blame some unrelated entity for "encouraging" behavior.

Chaco

Anyone who uses Strava consistently knows that its purpose is hardly to encourage reckless racing. Yes, there are some idiots out there who surely use Strava to do that, but if they didn't use Strava, they'd use Garmin, or MapMyRide, or any number of other sites. Also, most of the segments in my region that are downhill are flagged as dangerous if the segment runs through a light on the way down.

I'd say out of the thousand or so segments I have times on, maybe 10 of them are truly dangerous. At least half of them are uphill, and getting a KOM on those means going something like 22 mph, while the traffic on the road is going 35 mph.

Comparing Strava, made for bicyclists, with a hypothetical Strava for drivers is apples and oranges.

Myosmith

Just another example of people trying to dodge personal responsibility for their actions. "Strava made me do it". I use Strava a lot to track my rides and progress. Sure it's fun to see that you are KOM on a particular segment, but I'm not going to put myself or anyone else at risk to get there, and if I do take stupid risks, it's on me, not Strava. Stupid people will do stupid things with or without an app.

prathmann

Actually it was 'gadabout007' who hypothesized about a company similar to Strava but intended for motorists instead of cyclists.

You responded that you didn't think such a company would have any liability issue and I then raised the question if you would feel the same way if you were the seriously injured party in a crash caused by a motorist who had recently gotten an email from such a company letting them know that they had just lost their top rating on the road segment where you got hit and encouraging them to try and win it back. I.e. you find yourself in dire medical and financial straits through no fault of your own and have to decide whether you should file a suit against the internet company that encourages such informal racing which led to your injuries or if you'll just declare bankruptcy in face of the huge medical bills and hope to recover as best as possible. I strongly suspect that under such circumstances you would no longer regard the company that keeps posting the top times on that road and sends out reminders to participants to try and regain their positions as an 'unrelated entity.'

I find it interesting that neither you nor the OP have been willing to answer the simple yes or no question as to whether you would seek a judgement against such a company, or the equivalent question in the case where your child was seriously injured by a reckless cyclist who was trying to regain a Strava KOM and you needed a substantial settlement to pay for your kid's recovery.

SirHustlerEsq

lol @ anyone claiming that Strava should be responsible for any type of crash. This is a perfect example of everything that is wrong in the world. A lot of tools or games can be abused, that doesn't mean the person who created it caused the indiscretion. People seem to not feel shame or embarrassment anymore.

SpeshulEd 

Only cyclist wearing earbuds while riding strava segments get hit by cars.

:deadhor se:

edit: needs more dead horses.