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Campy - keep 10s or go 11?

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Campy - keep 10s or go 11?

Old 12-02-13, 11:51 PM
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What an interesting thread. I debated 10 vs 11 spd with my friends last winter and chose Athena 11spd. Love it. I don't have any history with Campy as this is my first, so no comments re PT vs UT, chain tools, etc. It works for me, shifts flawlessly, and love the KMC missing link.

I do have a question re Tony2v's comment re using a Shimano wheel/cassette. Is my understanding correct that an 11spd Shimano wheel/hub and cassette is compatible with an Athena 11 spd chain & derailleur? I'm so happy with the Athena that I've been thinking that the other bikes may go this way too - eventually. If there is now cross compatability with the wheels this may not be entirely necessary, or may allow other migration options.
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Old 12-02-13, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I completely disagree. I have used both the Campy 11 speed chain tool and the Park. I find them both well made and completely competent. For either the home or professional mechanic the Campy tool would be a total waste of money IMO. Much more expensive with no benefit in return. Dressing it up to look more expensive in no way makes it better.
It reads as if agree more than disagree

i directly stated that I'm not telling people they need the campy tool (expensive)

I also said that cheaper tools do the job (competent in your words)

I said that it had nicer fit, finish, and materials (dressed up in your words)

Back to my original comparison, it is like super record. I firmly believe that no one on earth, amature or professional, "needs" super record. Us mortals will still make it home on lower end stuff* and professionals that race on super record would finish in the same place using chorus. That doesn't mean there isn't a market. It also doesn't mean I wouldn't rather use it.

i do also believe that the Campagnolo tool was made with more presicion than most others and I think it goes well beyond "looking expensive" but you are free to disagree.

for the record, I own a cheap chain tool because it is economical.

*i should have likened the park tool to 105. It is solid, reliable, and reasonably priced. There are other lower end tools like from nashbar that are more like tourney. They are great for the budget cyclist but the details and precision are not there.

Last edited by thirdgenbird; 12-03-13 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 12-03-13, 01:17 AM
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Hi, interesting thread. The OP mentioned he's moving to Hawai'i. I have always lived on a coast where a significant percentage of my riding has been along the coast. Also, I currently live about 1 mile from the ocean (as the crow flies). Currently own Chorus-10 (circa 2005) and Record-10 (multiple vintages). What I have seen over the years between the various levels of Campagnolo is the quality of materials. If you live near salty sea air, you will see noticeably less corrosion on Record components than on Chorus components.

My caveat is that I haven't looked closely at the materials on the newest Chorus-11 parts. Maybe Campagnolo has ugraded the materials on Chorus over the years.

From a functional perspective, I can barely discern any performance difference between Record and Chorus (and what I can feel may be psychological).

I've never used 11-speed anything and with my investment in 10-speed cassettes (Record, Chorus, Centaur, and Veloce), I don't plan on switching to 11-speed anytime soon. Besides, ever since Campagnolo came out with 11-speed, all I can think about is the famous scene and lines from This is Spinal Tap.
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Old 12-03-13, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by h2oxtc
What an interesting thread. I debated 10 vs 11 spd with my friends last winter and chose Athena 11spd. Love it. I don't have any history with Campy as this is my first, so no comments re PT vs UT, chain tools, etc. It works for me, shifts flawlessly, and love the KMC missing link.

I do have a question re Tony2v's comment re using a Shimano wheel/cassette. Is my understanding correct that an 11spd Shimano wheel/hub and cassette is compatible with an Athena 11 spd chain & derailleur? I'm so happy with the Athena that I've been thinking that the other bikes may go this way too - eventually. If there is now cross compatability with the wheels this may not be entirely necessary, or may allow other migration options.
Yes, you correct, Shimano 11s wheel, freehub and cassette are compatible with Athena 11s chain and derailleur.
But a further explanation about other migration options as you call it...
Shimano 11s requires a new rear wheel for Shimano Ultegra 6800 and DA9000. Unlike Campy who did not have to change their freehub from 10s to 11s...Shimano's freehub for 10s was just a bit shorter and wouldn't accommodate another cog. For that reason they had to release a new rear wheel with longer freehub, shorter hub and deeper wheel dish. Now Shimano's freehub is a bit longer than Campy's with just a bit more wheel dish, even though cog spacing is almost identical as discussed. They did this btw to package protect for 12s and Campy if going to 12 cogs in back may struggle with their existing freehub length which is probably max'ed out for spacing.

So if you cross migrate 11s groupsets, and you use Campy on a Shimano bike, you will need Shimano's latest 11s rear wheel.
The other thing, and you may know this but you are new to it you stated, the splines are different on Shimano versus Campy freehubs so you can't use a Shimano cassette on a Campy freehub or visa versa. Freehubs are a bit different length as mentioned as well. This cross compatibility issue as it turns out is rare breath of fresh air with all the stove pipe technologies spawned from bike companies to separate themselves from the competition. At the end of the day, the prudent course maybe to choose a Shimano 11s rear wheel because as mentioned Ultegra cassettes tend to be more cost effective than Campy, available in nice wide ranges of cog spacing like mtb spacing and over time Shimano 11s wheels will likely become more common than Campy wheels. Also 11s Shimano wheels are now being shipped with spacers to regress them to 10s if needed as well.
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Old 12-03-13, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleave
Hi, interesting thread. The OP mentioned he's moving to Hawai'i. I have always lived on a coast where a significant percentage of my riding has been along the coast. Also, I currently live about 1 mile from the ocean (as the crow flies). Currently own Chorus-10 (circa 2005) and Record-10 (multiple vintages). What I have seen over the years between the various levels of Campagnolo is the quality of materials. If you live near salty sea air, you will see noticeably less corrosion on Record components than on Chorus components.

My caveat is that I haven't looked closely at the materials on the newest Chorus-11 parts. Maybe Campagnolo has ugraded the materials on Chorus over the years.

From a functional perspective, I can barely discern any performance difference between Record and Chorus (and what I can feel may be psychological).

I've never used 11-speed anything and with my investment in 10-speed cassettes (Record, Chorus, Centaur, and Veloce), I don't plan on switching to 11-speed anytime soon. Besides, ever since Campagnolo came out with 11-speed, all I can think about is the famous scene and lines from This is Spinal Tap.
My personal view is there is nothing between Chorus and Record in terms of corrosion resistance. And agree, that Super Record is a pure luxury for a well heeled biker and most including me would notice no difference in performance between the two....maybe a handful of grams if that and some aesthetic difference. Chorus is the sweet spot for the discerning road cyclist.
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Old 12-03-13, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
They did this btw to package protect for 12s and Campy if going to 12 cogs in back may struggle with their existing freehub length which is probably max'ed out for spacing.
Are you certain?

Isn't the Shimano 11spd chain the same width as the 10spd chain? The freehub length increased to accommodate the extra cog, (although spacing was narrowed).

I was told by Campagnolo that the most difficult part of their 11spd system to design and produce was the chain and that the entire group hinged on it. If this is true I don't see how Shimano could produce an even narrower chain to get to 12. Increasing the OLD would certainly be one solution but I suspect those 5mm will be used for disc rotors.

Considering the length of the development cycle at Shimano I wouldn't hold my breath for 12spd.
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Old 12-03-13, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird
It reads as if agree more than disagree

i directly stated that I'm not telling people they need the campy tool (expensive)

I also said that cheaper tools do the job (competent in your words)

I said that it had nicer fit, finish, and materials (dressed up in your words)

Back to my original comparison, it is like super record. I firmly believe that no one on earth, amature or professional, "needs" super record. Us mortals will still make it home on lower end stuff* and professionals that race on super record would finish in the same place using chorus. That doesn't mean there isn't a market. It also doesn't mean I wouldn't rather use it.

i do also believe that the Campagnolo tool was made with more presicion than most others and I think it goes well beyond "looking expensive" but you are free to disagree.

for the record, I own a cheap chain tool because it is economical.

*i should have likened the park tool to 105. It is solid, reliable, and reasonably priced. There are other lower end tools like from nashbar that are more like tourney. They are great for the budget cyclist but the details and precision are not there.
I see your point, but please let me direct you to my comment, "no benefit in return". I got the distinct impression you felt the Campy tool was more desirable, and that is what I dispute. Perhaps I could have been clearer about what I disagreed with. In short it is the idea that the fit, finish and materials are indeed nicer on the Campy tool than on the Park, and that even if that were true (not, in my opinion) there is any deficiency in the Park tool to warrant the extra expenditure. Self indulgence aside, and that mostly due to the aura of higher price rather than true benefit, what's the point? Is this a matter of opinion? Of course; how could we ever escape that disclaimer? Is there a market for such a product? Yes, I imagine so, but I am not part of it, I and don't feel that I suffer in any way because of that. I can sum up my feelings this way, "Emperor's New Clothes."
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Old 12-03-13, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
Are you certain?

Isn't the Shimano 11spd chain the same width as the 10spd chain? The freehub length increased to accommodate the extra cog, (although spacing was narrowed).

I was told by Campagnolo that the most difficult part of their 11spd system to design and produce was the chain and that the entire group hinged on it. If this is true I don't see how Shimano could produce an even narrower chain to get to 12. Increasing the OLD would certainly be one solution but I suspect those 5mm will be used for disc rotors.

Considering the length of the development cycle at Shimano I wouldn't hold my breath for 12spd.
Certain about what Bob? The future is far from certain.

It wouldn't make sense that the Shimano 11s chain is the same width as their 10s chain for the reason that cog spacing between Campy and Shimano for all intents is identical. Cog spacing dictates chain width so stands to reason that Shimano would have narrowed their chain similar to Campy and for the same reason since space between cogs is the same. Also, you may know that the inside dimensions of the chain stays the same because the interface with the cog tooth is unchanged...cog thickness doesn't change based upon a function of number of cogs...just the spacing between cogs narrows when changing from 10s to 11s.

As to creating a robust 11s chain, don't believe there is any magic really although chain width maybe getting close to optimal narrowness with 11s. After all, KMC also has a 11s chain that works fine for Campy and will likely work fine for Shimano because of identical cog spacing.

A last note to clarify your thoughts on 12 speed. Yes, 12s maybe well into the future, but because Shimano and Sram just released 11s, but that doesn't mean that Shimano didn't plan a longer freehub width for 12s. If making a change which Shimano had to because of a shortish freehub to accommodate 11s, just stands to reason they would package protect for 12 speed without yet another freehub change that for example Campy will likely have to make. But hard to know their precise thinking of course.

A further misconception... Chain width isn't synonymous with no. of cogs...just cog spacing. So if the industry relents and 135mm dropout width does become the future as many anticipate, and a wider freehub is released with same hub width for Campy and Shimano, then in theory, a 11s chain could be used for 12s and mfr's do not have be constrained by yet another narrower chain which you point out maybe technically challenging. Cog spacing at the end of the day maybe the biggest determinant. If running narrower spacing, this may introduce interference when cross chaining so for 12s, Mfr's may need the same cog spacing as 11s which would allow the same chain usage. I would not be surprised if 12 speed is in the future and will be interesting to see what form it takes from each manufacturer. Again, a bit of a surprise that 11s cog spacing ended up being so close among the big three. Generally companies like Campy and Shimano deliberately keep things different to preclude any cross mingling of products...why shifter detent and derailleur pull ratios are different for example.

Last edited by Campag4life; 12-03-13 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 12-03-13, 07:44 AM
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Campy 11s chain width: 5.5mm
Shimano 11s chain width: 5.62mm
Miche 11s chain width: 5.8mm
KMC 11s chain width: 5.5mm
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Old 12-03-13, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
Campy 11s chain width: 5.5mm
Shimano 11s chain width: 5.62mm
Miche 11s chain width: 5.8mm
KMC 11s chain width: 5.5mm
And for 10s:
Campy: 5.9mm
Shimano: 5.88mm

Take away?
Fractional chain width difference between Campy and Shimano 11s will likely make either chain shift fine on opposite groupset.
My preference would be the narrower Campy or KMC chain for X-chain clearance, but no doubt Shimano performed a boat load of development testing on their fractionally wider 11s chain and reports are new 11s Shimano shifts great.
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Old 12-03-13, 05:46 PM
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This is by far the most informative thread I've seen in a long time. As I'm considering an upgrade over the winter (6800, Athena, or possibly even Chorus from 5600) this has all been very interesting. Thank you gentlemen. Also, thank you for keeping it a proper discussion, not an immature rant as so often happens here...
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Old 12-03-13, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
I see your point, but please let me direct you to my comment, "no benefit in return". I got the distinct impression you felt the Campy tool was more desirable, and that is what I dispute. Perhaps I could have been clearer about what I disagreed with. In short it is the idea that the fit, finish and materials are indeed nicer on the Campy tool than on the Park, and that even if that were true (not, in my opinion) there is any deficiency in the Park tool to warrant the extra expenditure. Self indulgence aside, and that mostly due to the aura of higher price rather than true benefit, what's the point? Is this a matter of opinion? Of course; how could we ever escape that disclaimer? Is there a market for such a product? Yes, I imagine so, but I am not part of it, I and don't feel that I suffer in any way because of that. I can sum up my feelings this way, "Emperor's New Clothes."
That pretty much sums up the upper half of the cycling market.

lots of stuff is more desirable with no benefit in return. That's why I don't own 11spd.
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Old 12-03-13, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
Campy 11s chain width: 5.5mm
Shimano 11s chain width: 5.62mm
Miche 11s chain width: 5.8mm
KMC 11s chain width: 5.5mm
Thanks. I didn't have the time to do a search and don't trust the numbers floating around in my head anymore.

IIRC those are pin widths. Plate thicknesses also vary from brand to brand making overall widths slightly different.

As to seemingly small difference in widths not being a factor in shifting performance that really isn't the case. As was pointed out, once you get into a cross chaining situation (but within the limits of operation) those slight differences can make slight differences in shifting but, and this may be important to some, could lead to noisier drivetrains.

It may not seem difficult to make a chain a few mm narrower but according to the technical people I spoke with it was, bar far, the most challenging aspect of the entire 11spd group.

Campagnolo spent a great deal of time and effort squeezing out those few fractions of a mm. I honestly think Shimano couldn't get it done in time as they had to get 11spd to market. Perhaps, if they can overcome that hurdle, they would be able to squeeze 12 cogs onto their now longer freehub.


In terms of what the OP was asking, I would suggest going 11spd Chorus. In terms of value it hits a sweet spot and the group is very, very good.
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Old 12-03-13, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird
That pretty much sums up the upper half of the cycling market.

lots of stuff is more desirable with no benefit in return. That's why I don't own 11spd.
People said the same thing about 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed.
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Old 12-03-13, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
And for 10s:
Campy: 5.9mm
Shimano: 5.88mm
Well, if you really want to complete, original Campy 10s was 6.2mm.
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Old 12-03-13, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
People said the same thing about 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed.
Of course, and it will keep going. I will likely stay a generation behind where parts are avalible and affordable.
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Old 12-03-13, 07:40 PM
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Bob,
Reducing plate thickness becomes an issue because chains depend upon press fits and the compression caused by them to withstand the cyclic loading they see. So a thinning plate means you have to increase the amount of press fit size difference to achieve the same amount of preload. But pins and plates like to gall and shear with more press fit, so you have to be very precise to not increase the press to the point that the pin shreds the pin link plate, defeating the purpose of the press. And use of assembly lubes can compromise the joint. When I built chain, molybdenum disulfide (iirc) was the only allowed one.

This is why you can't, or at least aren't supposed to, reuse a pin link plate if you have pushed a rivet through it. You will deform the bore so that the reinstalled pin will not have sufficient press, and it will become the failure point.

And as an interesting and totally useless point, the rivet on chain is nonfunctional. The press fit holds the chain together. Early chains with slip or line to line fit needed a rivet, but when press fits came along, the market was so used to rivets that it would not buy unriveted chain. That is why old chains would have the beautiful copper spun riveted end (copper plating kept the end soft in carburizing), and modern chains have a cheap ugly ass stake or peened rivet.
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Old 12-03-13, 10:15 PM
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My opinion would be that unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket, stick with the 10s Veloce. As far as front shifting, throw down for a 10s record ultratorque crankset from Ebay, the Campy stuff shifts so much better than the aftermarket. I have a CAAD9 with 2010 Veloce (good shifters) and 10s Record crankset, shifts flawlessly.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-R...item3cd9675e3a
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Old 12-04-13, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
Bob,
Reducing plate thickness becomes an issue because chains depend upon press fits and the compression caused by them to withstand the cyclic loading they see. So a thinning plate means you have to increase the amount of press fit size difference to achieve the same amount of preload. But pins and plates like to gall and shear with more press fit, so you have to be very precise to not increase the press to the point that the pin shreds the pin link plate, defeating the purpose of the press. And use of assembly lubes can compromise the joint. When I built chain, molybdenum disulfide (iirc) was the only allowed one.

This is why you can't, or at least aren't supposed to, reuse a pin link plate if you have pushed a rivet through it. You will deform the bore so that the reinstalled pin will not have sufficient press, and it will become the failure point.

And as an interesting and totally useless point, the rivet on chain is nonfunctional. The press fit holds the chain together. Early chains with slip or line to line fit needed a rivet, but when press fits came along, the market was so used to rivets that it would not buy unriveted chain. That is why old chains would have the beautiful copper spun riveted end (copper plating kept the end soft in carburizing), and modern chains have a cheap ugly ass stake or peened rivet.
Good stuff Roll. Gotta love the internet, bringing different people together with different expertise. You know chain design. What you wrote makes a lot of sense. It would be somewhat ironic that minimal plate thickness maybe more driven by minimal press requirement than actual plate tensile strength or fatigue life. That sure isn't intuitive to somebody not intimate with chain design.

As I pointed out earlier to Bob, 12s can come into being with a 5.5mm width 11s chain, if mfr's move the goal posts and spread the dropout by 5mm to 135mm which would make room for another cog with similar spacing to 11s. Time will tell.
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Old 12-04-13, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by noise boy
My opinion would be that unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket, stick with the 10s Veloce. As far as front shifting, throw down for a 10s record ultratorque crankset from Ebay, the Campy stuff shifts so much better than the aftermarket. I have a CAAD9 with 2010 Veloce (good shifters) and 10s Record crankset, shifts flawlessly.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-R...item3cd9675e3a
Your option though not bad, doesn't have multiple shift capability which to me is the show stopper of Veloce 10s. I do agree with you about finding a used Record CF UT crank...or Chorus. Late model Veloce/Centaur can only shift one at a time. Perhaps your 2010 Veloce shifters are multiple shift like my 2010 Centaur 10s which aren't that easy to find now.

Talking economics which drives most of us....Chorus 11s shifters + Athena front/back derailleurs are competitively priced with 10s Centaur...or just a bit more.

Biggest difference with 11s is a Chorus cassette which tends to be almost 2x's more than Veloce/Centaur 10s cassette. If picking up a used UT crank which I agree is the best plan to avoid PT, the biggest difference is the cassette. A further curve ball, is using a new Shimano rear wheel with Campy 11s. Ultegra 11s cassettes are going to change things up...available at almost 1/2 that of Chorus:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-Ulte...item2331cfaaac

So Campy has some new pricing competition with Ultegra 6800 which is going to change $150 11s cassettes.

Last edited by Campag4life; 12-04-13 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 12-04-13, 05:24 AM
  #71  
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As a general comment, C4L, I recognize that current rev power shift 10 speed is not multiple shift in both directions, which seems to be why you don't recommend it. But as a user of 2012 Veloce shifters, they are still really really good, and though not the perfection they once were, they blow the socks off of Shimano 5700 and 6700, IMHO. From ergonomics to ease of shifting, to crispness of shift and the most reliable front shifting I have encountered, there are an awful lot of pluses to them. For $93 bucks brand spanking new, Veloce shifters with new cables are not a bad buy.

And having to multiple click the right thumb shifter has not given me carpal tunnel. In fact, it helps me to rejoice in my opposable thumb, and once again feel superior to dolphins.

Edit: although, dolphins have that care free swim around the ocean thing going, and they beat up sharks. They probably don't mind being stuck with flipper operable double tap.
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Old 12-04-13, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
As a general comment, C4L, I recognize that current rev power shift 10 speed is not multiple shift in both directions, which seems to be why you don't recommend it. But as a user of 2012 Veloce shifters, they are still really really good, and though not the perfection they once were, they blow the socks off of Shimano 5700 and 6700, IMHO. From ergonomics to ease of shifting, to crispness of shift and the most reliable front shifting I have encountered, there are an awful lot of pluses to them. For $93 bucks brand spanking new, Veloce shifters with new cables are not a bad buy.

And having to multiple click the right thumb shifter has not given me carpal tunnel. In fact, it helps me to rejoice in my opposable thumb, and once again feel superior to dolphins.

Edit: although, dolphins have that care free swim around the ocean thing going, and they beat up sharks. They probably don't mind being stuck with flipper operable double tap.
Good points Roll. A peeve I have with Campy is how they tweak their product mix to create market diversity. Campy I believe has always gone over the line in this regard. There is no reason for 10s not to be multiple shift like my excellent 2010 Centaur shifters. Campy in their infinite wisdom decided they needed more of an 'inducement' to upsell their 11s groupset...as if one more cog wasn't enough. So they pulled the plug on multiple shift capability for 10s all together. This was needless. They also did the same thing to upsell Chorus over Athena which again, is a bit shameful. Throw a PT crank on the pile as perhaps the most shameful with the weakest design. Chorus 11s could have stood on its own legs of more carbon, and lower weight and improved aesthetics over Athena without making Athena single shift like 10s is now. The harder sell is between Chorus and Record because they are so similar and if you listen to the chorus here, forgive the pun, Chorus wins the value contest with Record. So I don't quibble with Campy's technology as much as I do their BS marketing practices which I believe have always gone beyond the pale.

I will tell you there is a new sheriff in town, and his name is Ultegra 6800. Win win for the consumer. Ultegra is changing the 11s landscape for lower end 11s and alternative to Campy 10s and Athena 11s. Yes there is still an argument for more upscale Chorus and Record for Campy fans. Point of discussion, if jumping off the dock today, I'm going 11s and not 10s because of all the great options including lower cost Ultegra.

Last edited by Campag4life; 12-04-13 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 12-04-13, 09:15 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
Your option though not bad, doesn't have multiple shift capability which to me is the show stopper of Veloce 10s. I do agree with you about finding a used Record CF UT crank...or Chorus. Late model Veloce/Centaur can only shift one at a time. Perhaps your 2010 Veloce shifters are multiple shift like my 2010 Centaur 10s which aren't that easy to find now.

Talking economics which drives most of us....Chorus 11s shifters + Athena front/back derailleurs are competitively priced with 10s Centaur...or just a bit more.

Biggest difference with 11s is a Chorus cassette which tends to be almost 2x's more than Veloce/Centaur 10s cassette. If picking up a used UT crank which I agree is the best plan to avoid PT, the biggest difference is the cassette. A further curve ball, is using a new Shimano rear wheel with Campy 11s. Ultegra 11s cassettes are going to change things up...available at almost 1/2 that of Chorus:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-Ulte...item2331cfaaac

So Campy has some new pricing competition with Ultegra 6800 which is going to change $150 11s cassettes.
I am not sure what other there is, my rear will shift 3 down and 5 up in one stroke.
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Old 12-04-13, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by noise boy
I am not sure what other there is, my rear will shift 3 down and 5 up in one stroke.
The current lower models with "Powershift" will only shift 1 and 3, instead of 3 and 5.
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Old 12-04-13, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
... Chorus 11s could have stood on its own legs of more carbon, and lower weight and improved aesthetics over Athena...
C4L,
I'm not sure I agree with you there. I think the Athena group, particularly the polished aluminum finish, is quite possibly the best looking group offered at the moment from any of the big three companies. Of course, that is just me...
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