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Campy - keep 10s or go 11?

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Campy - keep 10s or go 11?

Old 11-28-13, 07:20 AM
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Campy - keep 10s or go 11?

What would you doÖ I am moving to Honolulu early next year. The plan was to just take the frame then buy parts and rebuild it there.

I am running a 2009 Campagnolo Veloce group with a FSA Gossamer compact crank. So it has skeleton brakes and ultra shift levers. I donít race and, in fact, donít even really like riding with other people so I have been reasonably satisfied with my setup. The front shifting isnít great. I donít know if it is the Veloce or the FSA or combination of the two, but Tokyo is very flat so Iím always in the 50.

I canít decide if I should keep the Veloce shifters, brakes, and derailleurs - updating the cassette and crank to 10s Centaur (they are due for replacement anyway) or just go 11s. I donít think the Veloce shifters will last forever, canít be rebuilt, and can only be replaced with power shift (Iím not going to f* around with finding replacements on eBay - I prefer having a warranty).

I figured Record it isnít that much more than Chorus and may be easier to maintain having bearings in some places rather than bushings, ceramic in the crank, a bit more Ti so it wonít rust as easilyÖ Are the shifters still rebuildable? Anyway, as you can see, Iím rather frugal. I donít want to throw cash around, but donít mind paying for the right thing which I will get a lot of use out of.

So what do you think:

1 - Keep 10sp ó> Are the shifters reliability a weak link here? Would the front shifting improve with a new Centaur front derailleur in addition to Centaur crank?

2 - Go 11sp ó> Is Record longer lasting (reliable/rebuildable) than Chorus?

I donít want this thread to digress as so many others have, but Shimano and Sram arenít options.
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Old 11-28-13, 07:31 AM
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Chorus 11 FTW.
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Old 11-28-13, 07:38 AM
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I don't think that you will find any longevity difference between the two groups. Both are excellent.
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Old 11-28-13, 07:47 AM
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I'm a Campy rider, but if you are thinking about changing out a lot of your groupset, you are doing yourself a disservice to not consider Ultegra 6800 or riding a new Red or Force groupset. Here's the thing. If you have a Campy rear wheel, you don't have to change it with a Ultegra 6800 groupset. If you put a Campy 11s rear cassette on your bike, it will shift fine with either new 11s Shimano or Sram groupsets.

An open mind is a good thing.

A couple of more points.

Choice of Campy has a lot to do with what kind of bike you ride and BB you have. Campy is pretty awful for adapting cranks to BB30...but can be done with a bit of work...and also Campy is putting out a new BB30 crank for 2014.

My opinion and shared by some other tech heads is...low end 11s Campy sucks. Athena is Power Torque and that crank sucks with a taper spline and single shift somewhat defeats the benefit of Campy.

11s Chorus is wonderful. So is Record of course. I personally agree with Bob as I generally do and would opt for Chorus.

There has never been another time in history when bike tech has been so good and there are so many great options. In my opinon, three years ago Campy blew all competition out of the water with high end groupsets...wasn't close. This is no longer the case. All three groupset makers now make excellent products so a harder decision now than ever before. Other good news is, its harder to make a mistake.
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Old 11-28-13, 08:01 AM
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I have Athena 11sp in my Bottecchia. I have Record 11sp in the Infinito and C59. Both groupset are reliable and perform well under all circumstances.

I have no experience with Chorus, but I ride with people who own it and are very happy with it.

I have never heard anyone, techie or otherwise, state that Athena is a bad groupset.

YMMV

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Old 11-28-13, 08:05 AM
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Keep to 10sp. I have both and I prefer the 10. Yes I also have sram red, and shimano and still prefer Campy 10.
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Old 11-28-13, 08:17 AM
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Chorus...
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Old 11-28-13, 08:23 AM
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If you go with Record, get a Chorus FD. The Record carbon cage tends to delaminate and get chewed up. The weight penalty of the Chorus FD is a whopping two grams.

IME, 11 speed shifts better than 10. Athena Powershift works just fine but the single shifting is a bit of a disappointment. The Athena crank doesn't "suck", it's just a less elegant design than Ultratorque.
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Old 11-28-13, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by soulbike
Keep to 10sp. I have both and I prefer the 10. Yes I also have sram red, and shimano and still prefer Campy 10.
Which Campy 11s do you own and can you comment on why you prefer 10s?

Also, not easy to find 10s with multiple shift capability....2010 Centaur was the last year...I own it btw and it is very good. 2009 Centaur RH shifter was pretty awful...I owned that as well.
Chorus is the sweet spot I believe...buy it out of the UK.
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Old 11-28-13, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
If you go with Record, get a Chorus FD. The Record carbon cage tends to delaminate and get chewed up. The weight penalty of the Chorus FD is a whopping two grams.

IME, 11 speed shifts better than 10. Athena Powershift works just fine but the single shifting is a bit of a disappointment. The Athena crank doesn't "suck", it's just a less elegant design than Ultratorque.
There is elegance, aka simplicity and there is function. PT cranks suck because a subset...depending on tolerance, creak. Yours apparently doesn't. UT is much easier to service and more solid by design...no press fit...line to line hirth joint and more robust. No puller to remove the left crank arm. A tapered spline...only one like it on the market, is needless and problematic...or can be. Glad you are happy with yours. I wouldn't own one.
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Old 11-28-13, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
There is elegance, aka simplicity and there is function. PT cranks suck because a subset...depending on tolerance, creak. Yours apparently doesn't. UT is much easier to service and more solid by design...no press fit...line to line hirth joint and more robust. No puller to remove the left crank arm. A tapered spline...only one like it on the market, is needless and problematic...or can be. Glad you are happy with yours. I wouldn't own one.
How many creaking PowerTorque cranks have you serviced?

A subset of every BB/crankset design ever made creaks. PT is light, stiff, functional, and serviceable. It's fine.
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Old 11-28-13, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by alfmil
What would you do… I am moving to Honolulu early next year. The plan was to just take the frame then buy parts and rebuild it there.

I am running a 2009 Campagnolo Veloce group with a FSA Gossamer compact crank. So it has skeleton brakes and ultra shift levers. I don’t race and, in fact, don’t even really like riding with other people so I have been reasonably satisfied with my setup. The front shifting isn’t great. I don’t know if it is the Veloce or the FSA or combination of the two, but Tokyo is very flat so I’m always in the 50.

I can’t decide if I should keep the Veloce shifters, brakes, and derailleurs - updating the cassette and crank to 10s Centaur (they are due for replacement anyway) or just go 11s. I don’t think the Veloce shifters will last forever, can’t be rebuilt, and can only be replaced with power shift (I’m not going to f* around with finding replacements on eBay - I prefer having a warranty).

I figured Record it isn’t that much more than Chorus and may be easier to maintain having bearings in some places rather than bushings, ceramic in the crank, a bit more Ti so it won’t rust as easily… Are the shifters still rebuildable? Anyway, as you can see, I’m rather frugal. I don’t want to throw cash around, but don’t mind paying for the right thing which I will get a lot of use out of.

So what do you think:

1 - Keep 10sp —> Are the shifters reliability a weak link here? Would the front shifting improve with a new Centaur front derailleur in addition to Centaur crank?

2 - Go 11sp —> Is Record longer lasting (reliable/rebuildable) than Chorus?

I don’t want this thread to digress as so many others have, but Shimano and Sram aren’t options.
How is the front shifting not great? Does it not shift into the big ring if you ease on the pedals a hair? Does it not drop into the small ring if you ease off the pedals a hair? With virtually any compact drivetrain (or any 16T difference in rings) if you do a full power shift the chain won't go anywhere, especially up into the big ring.

With all my Campy front derailleurs, except for the Record one that came with the only bike I bought complete since eons ago, the front derailleurs are not optimal when they arrive from the factory. They sacrifice some shifting force for versatility. I keep my front derailleur as low as possible (1-2mm clearance to rings). I a;sp slightly squeeze the two ears in front together, making the gap there narrower. This really improves shift response - it's my favorite trick for a rear derailleur.

If the front derailleur has a lot of slop then the pivots may be worn. In that case, if you can't take up the slop using cable tension, then a new front derailleur will work better.

You mention the cassette and cranks need replacing. Cassette I understand. Chainrings I understand, especially with a compact (since shifting across a bigger gap, like 16T, wears rings more than shifting across a small gap). Cranks, not so much. Yes, I've replaced Centaur cranks when they were too "un-straight". However if it's due to shifting then you probably need just rings. If you're looking for Record quality rings (and such thicker and stiffer rings really make a difference) then you can get cold forged Praxis rings. They make normal compact rings (50/34) but they also make the mid-compact (52/36). Thicker stiffer rings really make a difference. If you compare a Record/Chorus to a non-Record/Chorus ring there's a huge difference in material thickness and stiffness. This translates to a straighter ring for the good rings, and the chainrings deflect less when shifting. This is why the first generation of Red rings didn't win a lot of fans.

New rings will improve shifting up front because you have new/solid tooth profiles. Usually you have a new chain as well and that helps too.

10s Campy user. I use Praxis rings (Cannondale SI crankarms, both of them). My primary bike has new style Centaur 10s shifters although I have a number of Record/Chorus older body 10s shifters, including one set of my secondary bike (which was my primary for a couple years). I have metal caged front derailleurs, all pinched as described above. I have a Record front derailleur but I don't remember if it's on a bike or in a box.

One of my previous bike upgrades, about 10 years ago, was to put Chorus rings on Centaur cranks. Later I got the right length cranks and put Record arms on them. I didn't manage to wear out the Record rings before getting the Cannondale cranks (on a BB30 Cannondale bike). Last time someone wore out Record rings that I knew of they used them about 10 years.

I'm similar to you in budget thoughts. I won't spend money unnecessarily but I'll try things and I try to get good things when I spend money.

I hope this helps.
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Old 11-28-13, 10:37 AM
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Keep the 10s, save the money for a rainy day.

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Old 11-28-13, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by alfmil
I can’t decide if I should keep the Veloce shifters, brakes, and derailleurs - updating the cassette and crank to 10s Centaur (they are due for replacement anyway) or just go 11s. I don’t think the Veloce shifters will last forever, can’t be rebuilt, and can only be replaced with power shift (I’m not going to f* around with finding replacements on eBay - I prefer having a warranty).
Campagnolo sells brand new 10 speed Ultrashift mechanisms for about $90 including everything except brake blade, hood, and mounting hardware.

I'd expect them to last a very long time with the move to the new shift mechanism using a detent ball that rolls over the index notches instead of the G-spring which scrapes and wears.

I figured Record it isn’t that much more than Chorus and may be easier to maintain having bearings in some places rather than bushings, ceramic in the crank, a bit more Ti so it won’t rust as easily… Are the shifters still rebuildable?
Record and Chorus shifters are identical and weigh the same 337g per pair except for graphics and the brake blade cut-outs on Record. No small parts (apart from the plastic cable spool) are available.

1 - Keep 10sp —> Are the shifters reliability a weak link here? Would the front shifting improve with a new Centaur front derailleur in addition to Centaur crank?
You don't specify what your shifting problems are.

Campagnolo and Shimano do a better job with pins, ramps, and down shift zones although my FSA 50-34 Carbon Pro Compact crank ran fine.

2 - Go 11sp —> Is Record longer lasting (reliable/rebuildable) than Chorus?
Nope. The titanium big cogs and carbon fiber front derailleur outer cage will wear out sooner.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 11-28-13 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 11-28-13, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
How many creaking PowerTorque cranks have you serviced?

A subset of every BB/crankset design ever made creaks. PT is light, stiff, functional, and serviceable. It's fine.
There is a customer for every product. I would say you are the right guy for that crank...lol.
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Old 11-28-13, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
There is a customer for every product. I would say you are the right guy for that crank...lol.
I see you didn't waste your hiatus from the 41 on charm school.
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Old 11-28-13, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
I see you didn't waste your hiatus from the 41 on charm school.
Hiatus? Charm school? All I said, is a there is a right product for everybody and PT has found a good home at your house.
I have had my Chorus UT crank since 2006 and have had it off to clean regrease the bearings once a year since then...so about 7 times...at least. Countless miles. Original bearings. 10mm hex. Pop. What a great design. All I am saying is that PT is so far in the rear view mirror that it isn't even funny. What a PITA to have to use a puller to get the left crank arm off every time you want to regrease the bearings...not to mention, it depends on an interference fit...a taper no less. Ghost of square taper which died for a reason. A vestige of a joke from Campy's engineers to the bicycle community. A perfect distance cousin to Campy's notorious one bolt seat post. I like Campy. Every company has lemons. Campy has been more perfect in fact than Shimano over the years...as they should be with their lineage and of course upstart Sram who is learning incredibly fast. Reason for an outliar design like PT is likely for patent avoidance and saving a nickel if not dollar for every crank sold. Certainly not cost justification for the tremendous difference in design robustness. I mean who would design such an albatross that didn't do a lot of acid as a youth? UT by contrast has to be one of the best cranks every created. Line to line. As good if not better than even DA which is outstanding only more beautiful than DA. DA mounts much easier to BB30 of course. But Campy is addressing that in 2014.

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Old 11-28-13, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
Hiatus? Charm school? All I said, is a there is a right product for everybody and PT has found a good home at your house.
Playing innocent now, are we?

I have had my Chorus UT crank since 2006 and have had it off to clean regrease the bearings once a year since then...so about 7 times...at least. Countless miles. Original bearings. 10mm hex. Pop. What a great design. All I am saying is that PT is so far in the rear view mirror that it isn't even funny. What a PITA to have to use a puller to get the left crank arm off every time you want to regrease the bearings...not to mention, it depends on an interference fit...a taper no less. Ghost of square taper which died for a reason. A vestige of a joke from Campy's engineers to the bicycle community. A perfect distance cousin to Campy's notorious one bolt seat post. I like Campy. Every company has lemons. Campy has been more perfect in fact than Shimano over the years...as they should be with their lineage and of course upstart Sram who is learning incredibly fast. Reason for an outliar design like PT is likely for patent avoidance and saving a nickel if not dollar for every crank sold. Certainly not cost justification for the tremendous difference in design robustness. I mean who would design such an albatross that didn't do a lot of acid as a youth? UT by contrast has to be one of the best cranks every created. Line to line. As good if not better than even DA which is outstanding only more beautiful than DA. DA mounts much easier to BB30 of course. But Campy is addressing that in 2014.
I have three UT cranksets and one PT. They all work. A bearing puller isn't exactly exotic technology.
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Old 11-28-13, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
Chorus 11 FTW.
Agreed, but....

it it doesn't sound like the OP has any need for it. If I were him, I would stay 10 and upgrade to a campy crankset. A far as what style? Depends on application and budget. All my bikes are either square taper or ultra torque. None of the options are bad, but I like some more than others.
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Old 11-28-13, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
Playing innocent now, are we?



I have three UT cranksets and one PT. They all work. A bearing puller isn't exactly exotic technology.
Pullers are great fun. Especially when all other cranks in the industry come apart without one. Oh, there is a special tool here and there...including new Campy BB30 which will require one. At least, PT doesn't have a removal spider...lol.
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Old 11-28-13, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
Pullers are great fun. Especially when all other cranks in the industry come apart without one. Oh, there is a special tool here and there...including new Campy BB30 which will require one. At least, PT doesn't have a removal spider...lol.
So special tools are preferable to a general shop tool? OK.
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Old 11-28-13, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
So special tools are preferable to a general shop tool? OK.
I am not quite ready to embrace the insidious notion that bike companies are in business to make money and therefore create products that require special tools to create an addendum revenue stream for every unit sold. There maybe some truth to it however.
The debate about design can never be answered for the simple reason that there is no such thing. What matters is...after surveying the landscape of different products, that you are comfortable with what you bought. I would ride Shimano or Sram before Athena.
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Old 11-28-13, 04:06 PM
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I have 10sp Record and 11sp Super Record. I prefer the 10sp because the spacing is more shift-friendly. I also prefer the clunkier feel of shifting. Overall, SR record has more carbon bits, and I feel because of the 11sp doesn't shift as well. It is not uncommon to miss a shift every now and then. I've worked on many SR11 bikes all with the same issue.

I've also owned Centaur 10, Chorus 10 and Centaur 11. All of them work, no company makes a product that doesn't work intentionally. But my preference is still for Record 10, again due to shifting accuracy and feel.

Originally Posted by Campag4life
Which Campy 11s do you own and can you comment on why you prefer 10s?

Also, not easy to find 10s with multiple shift capability....2010 Centaur was the last year...I own it btw and it is very good. 2009 Centaur RH shifter was pretty awful...I owned that as well.
Chorus is the sweet spot I believe...buy it out of the UK.
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Old 11-28-13, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by soulbike
I have 10sp Record and 11sp Super Record. I prefer the 10sp because the spacing is more shift-friendly. I also prefer the clunkier feel of shifting. Overall, SR record has more carbon bits, and I feel because of the 11sp doesn't shift as well. It is not uncommon to miss a shift every now and then. I've worked on many SR11 bikes all with the same issue.

I've also owned Centaur 10, Chorus 10 and Centaur 11. All of them work, no company makes a product that doesn't work intentionally. But my preference is still for Record 10, again due to shifting accuracy and feel.
Another poster argued that 11s shifts better than 10. Since 11s uses the same freehub as 10 and has tighter spacing between cogs, then statistically you are probably right...the same (as 10s) magnitude of derailleur misalignment likely manifests greater shifter error i.e. pulley to cog centerline misalignment as you say. This seemed to be reported early on more than it is today as 11s has been out quite a while now and I am not aware of any sweeping changes though likely there have been incremental refinements. It is also one of the reasons Shimano didn't even try to put 11 cogs on their shorter freehub and opted for a fractionally longer freehub than Campy even though for all intents, cassette cogs line right up from 1 to 11 between all manufacturers now. So in effect, Shimano and Sram both signed up for the shifter error you say is less than ideal. See below.
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Old 11-28-13, 04:59 PM
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Mr. Dopolina
 
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
I am not quite ready to embrace the insidious notion that bike companies are in business to make money and therefore create products that require special tools to create an addendum revenue stream for every unit sold. There maybe some truth to it however.
That sounds good on paper but, in reality, the number of any tools. Sold will be very, very small and will not be items that generate real revenue.

As an example, Novatec has a ratchet ring tool. We wanted some for our consumer site. Novatec didn't have any. They didn't have any in production and no one was assigned to get it done. So we made the drawing, found the vendor and supplied the tool to them. We also ordered more than they did.

Even when I worked for a company that distributed Campagnolo this was the case. In five years we never sold a single Campagnolo tool kit. We had the UT bearing tools in our service center but only a handful of shops even invested in them. I don't know if any consumer ever did.

Now speciality companies like Park or Hosan might be selling these tools but that isn't making a dime for any of the bike companies.
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