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Centaur and Athena, is 11 really better?

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Centaur and Athena, is 11 really better?

Old 01-01-14, 05:22 PM
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vwchad
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Centaur and Athena, is 11 really better?

Regarding Campagnolo groups, specifically, Centaur and Athena, I know that there have been numerous discussions on this group vs that group, power torque cranks vs ultra torque cranks, ultra shift vs power shift, just go with Chorus, etc, etc. I've searched the forums and even chimed in on some of the recent ones. I'm willing to give PT cranks a try and don't really see PS shifting as a major disadvantage to a recreational cyclist, such as myself.

Provided Uncle Sam doesn't steal all the cash I have stashed away in the name of taxes (), I plan to do a bit of an upgrade on my Focus Izalco. It is currently equipped with Shimano 5600 and some well used Mavic Aksuium Race wheels that could stand to be replaced. I'm perfectly happy with a mid range, 105 level group, which I assume is aproximately where Centaur falls in the lineup. The 105 group I have is perfectly functional and in good shape, but the hoods quickly become very uncomfortable for me. I also have a standard double crankset, and long for a compact again. Another gear would be cool, but is that alone worth it? I've been shopping on Ribble and there is about a $125 USD difference between them. My questions (finally, I know, I ramble) are:

1. Is there any real, noteworthy difference between Centaur and Athena, other than 1 more gear? Quality?

2. Is there a good reason not to just go with Centaur and spend that $$ saved on the new wheels?

3. Anyone used both and actually found a difference, besides when it comes time for a new chain and cassette and you have to buy 11s Chorus for the Athena (ouch)?

Sorry for the rambling. I tend to over think things when spending my hard earned cash.
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Old 01-01-14, 05:31 PM
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Overall, both groups are pretty similar. With only $125 separating them, I would go Athena. One big benefit of 11spd is common cassette spacing with shimano and sram.

the only thing that would make me think about going centaur is my two existing c10 bikes.


edit: I should mention that beyond the extra cog, I think Athena has better chainrings and a little more alloy hardware to make it a bit lighter.

Last edited by thirdgenbird; 01-01-14 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 01-01-14, 05:59 PM
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Veloce and Centaur are so incredibly similar as to almost be indistinguishable. So you may want to compare Veloce to Athena, especially if you like silver. Also, last time I checked Ribble, you can piecemeal groups for no price penalty over group prices. So Centaur ergos, brakes, RD, and carbon crank can be paired with Veloce everything else to save $'s and weight.

Additionally, my PT Centaur crank was creaky under load from the get go. After 6 months of use, I stumbled on a thread saying lubricate and torque chainring bolts. I did, and creaks disappeared.
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Old 01-01-14, 06:04 PM
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11 speed is exactly 10% better than 10 speed.
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Old 01-01-14, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
Overall, both groups are pretty similar. With only $125 separating them, I would go Athena. One big benefit of 11spd is common cassette spacing with shimano and sram.

the only thing that would make me think about going centaur is my two existing c10 bikes.


edit: I should mention that beyond the extra cog, I think Athena has better chainrings and a little more alloy hardware to make it a bit lighter.
I guess I should consider if I want to use a Shimano cassette then. Didn' think about that...

Weight wise, Athena vs Centaur, there isn't much of a difference, particularly for a fatty like me (I am working on that though).
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Old 01-01-14, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Veloce and Centaur are so incredibly similar as to almost be indistinguishable
Veloce has stamped chainrings vs centaurs machined
veloce has the old FD vs the newer reinforced centaur+ design
veloce has the old RD cage and pulleys vs the newer centaur+ design

veloce is a very nice group but centaur has some very notable improvements. In my opinion, the only reason to get veloce over centaur is for the silver finish if that is your thing. If you are going black, consider using veloce levers, brakes, chain, and cassettes with centaur derailleurs and cranks.


i also forgot to mention Athena has skeleton brakes where centaur no longer does.

Last edited by thirdgenbird; 01-01-14 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 01-01-14, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Veloce and Centaur are so incredibly similar as to almost be indistinguishable. So you may want to compare Veloce to Athena, especially if you like silver. Also, last time I checked Ribble, you can piecemeal groups for no price penalty over group prices. So Centaur ergos, brakes, RD, and carbon crank can be paired with Veloce everything else to save $'s and weight.

Additionally, my PT Centaur crank was creaky under load from the get go. After 6 months of use, I stumbled on a thread saying lubricate and torque chainring bolts. I did, and creaks disappeared.
Interesting idea. I may have to spend some time playing around on Ribble to see how that would work out with a few Veloce parts like cassette and chain.

Good to know on the PT crank.
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Old 01-01-14, 06:17 PM
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See my recommendation for a mixed 10spd group above. Basically, I would look at centaur derailleurs and cranks with an otherwise veloce group. You could also class it up with Athena skeleton brakes.

for what its worth, I use centaur chains and veloce cassettes with my record 10.
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Old 01-01-14, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
Veloce has stamped chainrings vs centaurs machined
veloce has the old FD vs the newer reinforced centaur+ design
veloce has the old RD cage and pulleys vs the newer centaur+ design
.
The RD difference I knew, but not the FD. As to chainrings, Campagnolo identifies both groups as having "light-alloy sheared-drawn chainrings with antifriction treatment". Both also have MPS™ (Marketing People Shpeil).
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Old 01-01-14, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
The RD difference I knew, but not the FD. As to chainrings, Campagnolo identifies both groups as having "light-alloy sheared-drawn chainrings with antifriction treatment". Both also have MPS™ (Marketing People Shpeil).
Unless, they changed things, you could really tell the difference in the rings when they were side by side. Note how centaur black rings have silver teeth and the veloce ones are just black. More finishing work on the centaur stuff.

Last edited by thirdgenbird; 01-01-14 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 01-01-14, 06:55 PM
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OP, don't forget the Campy 11 speed chains and third party substitutes when taken off the bike need a new pin or master link to be reconnected. You can't reuse the old pin or master link. That's not earth shattering, but is an aggravation if you take off your chain to clean it.
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Old 01-01-14, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Veloce and Centaur are so incredibly similar as to almost be indistinguishable. So you may want to compare Veloce to Athena, especially if you like silver. Also, last time I checked Ribble, you can piecemeal groups for no price penalty over group prices. So Centaur ergos, brakes, RD, and carbon crank can be paired with Veloce everything else to save $'s and weight.

Additionally, my PT Centaur crank was creaky under load from the get go. After 6 months of use, I stumbled on a thread saying lubricate and torque chainring bolts. I did, and creaks disappeared.

So I just tried building my own group with Athena everything, except cassette. I went with 6800 because it is cheaper and I like the wide range (11-28). No savings over the full Athena group. It looks to me like they do give a little discount for a full group.
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Old 01-01-14, 08:05 PM
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I have full Athena 11 carbon, and have ridden red Centaur 10spd on a friend's bike; it was a short, rolling, 20mile round trip, but no real discernible difference in terms of performance. Maybe the Centaur was a little more abrupt with the rear shifts, but I'm not comfy saying that for certain, as it could have been a tune issue or even totally in my head. Centaur with the red bits looks sporty.

I guess it really gets down to whether you can afford the weight savings and extra gear. For my build, having the polished/carbon mix was important, as was having a straight gruppo, so the decision for me was easy Athena. Probably Centaur would be a good choice for a crit bike.
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Old 01-01-14, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
OP, don't forget the Campy 11 speed chains and third party substitutes when taken off the bike need a new pin or master link to be reconnected. You can't reuse the old pin or master link. That's not earth shattering, but is an aggravation if you take off your chain to clean it.
I use a KMC X11SL 11 speed chain with Missing Link on my Record 11 setup.
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Old 01-01-14, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tony2v View Post
I use a KMC X11SL 11 speed chain with Missing Link on my Record 11 setup.
Yes, but just saying that KMC, like Campy, advises against reusing the link.
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Old 01-02-14, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I have full Athena 11 carbon, and have ridden red Centaur 10spd on a friend's bike; it was a short, rolling, 20mile round trip, but no real discernible difference in terms of performance. Maybe the Centaur was a little more abrupt with the rear shifts, but I'm not comfy saying that for certain, as it could have been a tune issue or even totally in my head. Centaur with the red bits looks sporty.

I guess it really gets down to whether you can afford the weight savings and extra gear. For my build, having the polished/carbon mix was important, as was having a straight gruppo, so the decision for me was easy Athena. Probably Centaur would be a good choice for a crit bike.
I have both, Athena 11spd and Centaur Red 10spd on another bike. Both shift flawlessly. For me it came down to the couple hundred dollars that I didn't want to spend on the second bike, and I liked the red accents of the Centaur. If I ever find a reason to replace the DuraAce on the yet another bike, it would be the Athena carbon. IMO best Campy value for the money.
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Old 01-02-14, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by h2oxtc View Post
I have both, Athena 11spd and Centaur Red 10spd on another bike. Both shift flawlessly. For me it came down to the couple hundred dollars that I didn't want to spend on the second bike, and I liked the red accents of the Centaur. If I ever find a reason to replace the DuraAce on the yet another bike, it would be the Athena carbon. IMO best Campy value for the money.
I'll dissent. Its all what you want to settle for. Build your own Campy group if looking for value. Find a used UT crank...so much easier to install and maintenance and no tapered spline to contend with. Get Chorus shifters...they are pretty cheap new on ebay. If you want you can get the rest of the stuff out of the UK. A 6800 cassette makes a lot of sense for both a more common Shimano rear wheel hub and price of a cassette with popular wide spacing.
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Old 01-02-14, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dmcdam View Post
11 speed is exactly 10% better than 10 speed.
And 10 speed is 9.1% "worse" than 11 speed.
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Old 01-02-14, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Yes, but just saying that KMC, like Campy, advises against reusing the link.
First, I doubt they mean "replace the link every time you take the chain off to clean".

Second, of course they recommend not reusing it. More sales for them, and if you break it they can say it's your fault.
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Old 01-02-14, 09:44 AM
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chaadster and h2oxtc, thank you both for your fist hand accounts of these two groups.

Campag4life, thank you for your input, I appreciate your knowledge of the brand. Regarding the 6800 cassette option, have you personally used it? I've seen it mentioned a number of times, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone that has tried it actually chime in. Just curious if there is any shift performance differences, like slower, noise, hard to adjust maybe? I do like the wide gearing options provided by Shimano, that is for sure.
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Old 01-02-14, 09:51 AM
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Old 01-02-14, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by save10 View Post
I'm surprised it took this long...
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Old 01-02-14, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by vwchad View Post
chaadster and h2oxtc, thank you both for your fist hand accounts of these two groups.

Campag4life, thank you for your input, I appreciate your knowledge of the brand. Regarding the 6800 cassette option, have you personally used it? I've seen it mentioned a number of times, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone that has tried it actually chime in. Just curious if there is any shift performance differences, like slower, noise, hard to adjust maybe? I do like the wide gearing options provided by Shimano, that is for sure.
Not personally but if interested Zinn has done the testing and I agree with him. Btw, I rarely disagree with him. He is a smart guy and knows his stuff. Your issue chad is...if you have older Shimano, you will need a new wheelset regardless to go to 11s....either a Shimano 11s wheel or Campy rear wheel. I have posted the side by side cassette pic on here before. Difference between the two can easily be tuned.
So just go with whichever option you are most comfortable with. I say its a jump ball and Shimano cassettes are cheaper.
Other thing is...don't rule out Ultegra 6800 for everything. It can't be beat for the $$$...and I thought 6700 was pretty awful.
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Old 01-02-14, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
First, I doubt they mean "replace the link every time you take the chain off to clean".

Second, of course they recommend not reusing it. More sales for them, and if you break it they can say it's your fault.
That's exactly what they mean! Can you get away with violating this rule? Dunno. Just telling you what is recommended. The motivation is arguable, but that doesn't mean you can rely on a conspiracy theory to get you by every time you don't want to believe a safety recommendation. Just saying if you're too cheap to replace the pin or link every time you undo the chain, then you are too cheap to ride 11 speed. It's a corollary to the, "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" rule. Pretty simple.
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Old 01-02-14, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Not personally but if interested Zinn has done the testing and I agree with him. Btw, I rarely disagree with him. He is a smart guy and knows his stuff. Your issue chad is...if you have older Shimano, you will need a new wheelset regardless to go to 11s....either a Shimano 11s wheel or Campy rear wheel. I have posted the side by side cassette pic on here before. Difference between the two can easily be tuned.
So just go with whichever option you are most comfortable with. I say its a jump ball and Shimano cassettes are cheaper.
Other thing is...don't rule out Ultegra 6800 for everything. It can't be beat for the $$$...and I thought 6700 was pretty awful.
Good to know on the 6800 cassette compatability.

It is time for new wheels, regardless of 10s, 11s, or group manufacture, so the issue of having to get new wheels isn't a concern if going with an all Campagnolo group.

I agree with you on the Ultegra issue as well. I currently have 5700 105 on a different bike. Works fine, reasonably comfortable hoods, but not as nice as Campy IMO. Shifting is a bit of a mystery at times. I've actually been known to look back at the cassette to make sure the chain actually moved. Don't particularly like that. In my experience 6700 is nearly identical to 5700 in fit and function. I doubt I could tell the difference blindfolded (on a trainer of course ). I wouldn't waste my money on 6700. I'd just go for 5700 if I were to stick to 10 speed Shimano, which is yet another option I suppose. Ultimately, Ergonomics and a postive shift feel were my initial reasons for looking at Campy. However, I'd really like to try the 6800 to see first hand if they have addressed my issues, as insignificant as they may be. That could change my mind.
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