Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

The plot thickens in the electronic age...

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

The plot thickens in the electronic age...

Old 01-16-14, 11:38 AM
  #26  
OldTryGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SW Fl.
Posts: 5,196

Bikes: Day6 Semi Recumbent "FIREBALL", 1981 Custom Touring Paramount, 1983 Road Paramount, 2013 Giant Propel Advanced SL3, 2018 Specialized Red Roubaix Expert mech., 2002 Magna 7sp hybrid, 1976 Bassett Racing 45sp Cruiser

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 909 Post(s)
Liked 468 Times in 311 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Also, pedaling isn't nearly as uniform as controlling the throttle on a car. If you slack off for a second for any reason, grabbing a water bottle, dodging a pothole whatever, is the transmission going to downshift mindlessly? That could be very disconcerting and inconvenient.
Shimano FF (front freewheel) along with Positron Shifting is as easy as it gets allowing shifting with NO PEDALING.
OldTryGuy is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 11:48 AM
  #27  
donrhummy
Senior Member
 
donrhummy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
One big benefit from this: if the Ant+ receiver records your gearing at every pedal stroke, training apps will be able to tell you which gearing allows you to put out the highest power with the lowest effort at different gradients.
donrhummy is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 11:53 AM
  #28  
RPK79
Custom User Title
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239

Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2862 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by donrhummy View Post
One big benefit from this: if the Ant+ receiver records your gearing at every pedal stroke, training apps will be able to tell you which gearing allows you to put out the highest power with the lowest effort at different gradients.
Data overload.
RPK79 is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 11:55 AM
  #29  
donrhummy
Senior Member
 
donrhummy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
Data overload.
for most amateur riders, yes. but what about pros or coaches?
donrhummy is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:14 PM
  #30  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 35,411

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 346 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17325 Post(s)
Liked 6,029 Times in 3,116 Posts
Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
Mechanical cables are still the most reliable and cost effective way to shift gears on a bike, and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Cheaper? Yes. More reliable? Depends. Whether electronic or mechanical, upkeep will be necessary and that will rely upon the end user. Some people are more comfortable charging/changing a battery, some people are more comfortable adjusting tension and limit screws.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:24 PM
  #31  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 35,411

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 346 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17325 Post(s)
Liked 6,029 Times in 3,116 Posts
Originally Posted by donrhummy View Post
for most amateur riders, yes. but what about pros or coaches?
Even for amateurs, I don't think that implementation of your idea would necessarily be data overload. Hell, done right, I can see it being more useful to casual riders than to enthusiasts/pros. The user shouldn't need to look at all the data (unless they really want to) and certainly wouldn't need to be subjected to it mid-ride. All that would be necessary is a gearing recommendation on the display, which the rider could accept or feel free to ignore. It would be interesting, though, if they could collect enough data to tell if it was one of those 'feelin' your Wheaties' rides vs one of those 'do I have a brake pad rubbing?' days and then tailor the recommendations accordingly.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:32 PM
  #32  
Yankeetowner
Senior Member
 
Yankeetowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Yankeetown/Orlando, Florida
Posts: 264

Bikes: Road Bikes: 2014 Giant Propel Advanced 1; 1989 Klein Quantum, 2013 Giant Defy 2, & Mountain Bike: 2013 Cannondale Six

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Cheaper? Yes. More reliable? Depends. Whether electronic or mechanical, upkeep will be necessary and that will rely upon the end user. Some people are more comfortable charging/changing a battery, some people are more comfortable adjusting tension and limit screws.
Agree completely...I couldn't adjust my way out of a paper bag, but I can charge a battery. Charging my Cateye Stealth 50 right now.
Yankeetowner is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:32 PM
  #33  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1187 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by jeff_l_scott View Post
This is all done for shift feel, and the biggest reason to do it is due to the torque spike that would otherwise occur. The torque spike is due to the fact that during an up shift the transmission is effectively decelerating the engine from its speed in the lower gear to the equivalent engine speed in the higher gear. The engines rotational inertia has to go somewhere, so the basic objective is to reduce engine torque output by about the same amount as the deceleration of the engine will add.

Also, it's not like this is a necessity. Automatics have obviously been around for much longer than the ability to electronically reduce engine output. This is a nicety, not a necessity.



Given the rotating inertia's involved, I don't think it is an issue.
I believe you are wrong about that...in bold above. It is an issue in fact right now. Virtually all cyclists reduce pedal force when shifting to avert the jolt in human angular momentum of their legs. Same principle and analog to depowering an engine when shifting a car transmission.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:42 PM
  #34  
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Posts: 8,805

Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
How would an automatic bicycle ever know which hill you want to power over, and which hill you want to spin? How would it know when you want to attack? If you have to manually override in every aggressive situation, it would seem silly to not practice for that aggressive situation with every easy shift, much like we do know.

And as to knowing what gear you are in for maximum power, that wouldn't seem useful without knowing grade, and what your shift pattern was prior. Most folks would be putting out their highest wattage in their little ring, because that's where most gear user's are when they climb. Seems like an easy way to get garbage information. Just email me, and I will give you garbage information for much less per use.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:47 PM
  #35  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 35,411

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 346 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17325 Post(s)
Liked 6,029 Times in 3,116 Posts
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
And as to knowing what gear you are in for maximum power, that wouldn't seem useful without knowing grade, and what your shift pattern was prior.
The first post speculates on wireless electronic shifting communicating with Garmin or equiv GPS. Sheesh - you should at least know the conditions of the mental ***********y exercise.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:48 PM
  #36  
SirHustlerEsq
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rep. of Dallas
Posts: 1,062
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bt View Post
your in luck, only the battery has to be charged,
Thanks for clarifying.
SirHustlerEsq is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 12:55 PM
  #37  
StephenH
Uber Goober
 
StephenH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dallas area, Texas
Posts: 11,759
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
To put a finer technical point on automatic shifting which exists on current motorcycles and automobiles, there is greater opportunity for electronic synergy between the engine and the trans than would be available on a pedal power road bike. The way it works with lets say for a current automobile is...when a shift is about to occur as engine RPM and road speed increase based upon load and engine vacuum, throttle position is electronically closed fractionally and ignition timing is re-tarded slightly to 'soften' the shift. This dramatically improves shift quality and gives it a more seamless quality. Automatic shifting on a bicycle will be more challenging because rider watt output can't be tweaked as readily as with an electronic motor or gasoline engine. Some accommodation could be made with a fluid coupler or torque converter to soften shifts made under rider load but of course this would reduce power efficiency of the rider to the road. If a rider doesn't know when a shift is coming, then a rider isn't going to reduce power to make the shift more seamless.
Will be quite interesting to see where this will lead.

PS: noted technology will likely also affect the wire harness on future electronic shifting groupsets. Wireless shifting is like part of this architecture and therefore amount of wire stringing won't be as invasive....not unlike wireless bike computers taking to sending units that are not connected with a harness.
I'd suggest a couple of wires embedded in the saddle or handlebars that give you a little electrical jolt just prior to each shift so you go "What the!..." and then it shifts and you say "Oh", and start pedaling again.
__________________
"be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."
StephenH is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 01:02 PM
  #38  
link0
Senior Member
 
link0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 794

Bikes: '11 Merlin Extralight, '98 Dean Castanza, '89 Schwinn Prologue

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Automatic shifting would be great for most people who would rather use automatic cars than manual. Which is most people.

Last edited by link0; 01-16-14 at 04:07 PM.
link0 is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 01:12 PM
  #39  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1187 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
How would an automatic bicycle ever know which hill you want to power over, and which hill you want to spin? How would it know when you want to attack? If you have to manually override in every aggressive situation, it would seem silly to not practice for that aggressive situation with every easy shift, much like we do know.

And as to knowing what gear you are in for maximum power, that wouldn't seem useful without knowing grade, and what your shift pattern was prior. Most folks would be putting out their highest wattage in their little ring, because that's where most gear user's are when they climb. Seems like an easy way to get garbage information. Just email me, and I will give you garbage information for much less per use.
A fair point but to simplify...and it can be I believe, it is no difference than driving a car or an automatic shift motor scooter up a hill.
Sensors would assess cadence and load aka strain (power meter) and based upon a computer algorithm the bike would shift to the gear based upon this data. So if you are riding along at 150 watts and come to a hill and continue to apply 150 watts the bike will keep trying to down shift to sustain this power level until it no longer can i.e. first gear and you have to increase your wattage to crest the hill if the hill is too steep to sustain 150w in 1st gear. Conversely if you are riding at 150w and encounter a hill and want to blitz the hill and therefore dial your wattage up to 300-400 watts...the bike will shift to the gear to best maintain your optimal cadence at that wattage.
I see the above to be quite possible.

Last edited by Campag4life; 01-16-14 at 01:19 PM.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 01:31 PM
  #40  
jmX
Senior Member
 
jmX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 2,201

Bikes: Roubaix / Shiv

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by donrhummy View Post
One big benefit from this: if the Ant+ receiver records your gearing at every pedal stroke, training apps will be able to tell you which gearing allows you to put out the highest power with the lowest effort at different gradients.
This data can already be extrapolated given your cadence and speed, both of which are already saved in an ANT+ computer. The real issue is that I'm not sure there's any value in that data.
jmX is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 01:41 PM
  #41  
RPK79
Custom User Title
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239

Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2862 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 13 Posts
I'm holding out for self shifting self steering bikes so I can just sit and spin while reading a book or checking up on facebook. Until then I guess I'll have to make due with stationary bikes...

No matter how fancy the programming is that goes into automatic shifting bikes they will never be able to beat the data crunching of our own brains and bodies when it comes to when to shift and what gear to be in at any given time. It's a solution in search of a problem.
RPK79 is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 01:55 PM
  #42  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 35,411

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 346 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17325 Post(s)
Liked 6,029 Times in 3,116 Posts
Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
No matter how fancy the programming is that goes into automatic shifting bikes they will never be able to beat the data crunching of our own brains and bodies when it comes to when to shift and what gear to be in at any given time. It's a solution in search of a problem.


If we're talking about the short-term future and experienced riders, I'd tend to agree. But if we add inexperienced riders and extend the timeframe a little, it could be very beneficial for some. A couple years ago, I went for a ride with a friend - an avid swimmer and runner that had recently gotten in to triathlons. She couldn't shift her way out of a paper bag, despite being very in tune with her body's limits. Simply having me there to say, "hey Nik - try shifting in to the big ring up front," or "try going two clicks down on the rear," was a tremendous help for her.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:02 PM
  #43  
RPK79
Custom User Title
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239

Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2862 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
If we're talking about the short-term future and experienced riders, I'd tend to agree. But if we add inexperienced riders and extend the timeframe a little, it could be very beneficial for some. A couple years ago, I went for a ride with a friend - an avid swimmer and runner that had recently gotten in to triathlons. She couldn't shift her way out of a paper bag, despite being very in tune with her body's limits. Simply having me there to say, "hey Nik - try shifting in to the big ring up front," or "try going two clicks down on the rear," was a tremendous help for her.
Sounds like a crutch that would keep new riders from ever achieving their full capabilities on the bike since they would be limited by what gear the bike feels they should be in. Maybe beneficial in the short term but at the same time not so much.
RPK79 is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:17 PM
  #44  
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Posts: 8,805

Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I'd like a system that repeatedly says, 'Your door is ajar". I would pay extra for that.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:17 PM
  #45  
pdxtex
Portland, OR, USA
 
pdxtex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: portland
Posts: 1,626

Bikes: kona paddywagon, trek 2.1, lemond nevada city, gt zrx

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
portland is the bicycle capital of north america so by default my opinion matters more! that being said, i deem electronic shifting to be stupid. all in favor, say aye! oppossed, oh wait, your opinion doesn't matter!

Last edited by pdxtex; 01-16-14 at 02:23 PM.
pdxtex is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:18 PM
  #46  
RPK79
Custom User Title
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239

Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2862 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
I'd like a system that repeatedly says, 'Your door is ajar". I would pay extra for that.
How about a check engine light on your stem?
RPK79 is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:25 PM
  #47  
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Posts: 8,805

Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
If we're talking about the short-term future and experienced riders, I'd tend to agree. But if we add inexperienced riders and extend the timeframe a little, it could be very beneficial for some. A couple years ago, I went for a ride with a friend - an avid swimmer and runner that had recently gotten in to triathlons. She couldn't shift her way out of a paper bag, despite being very in tune with her body's limits. Simply having me there to say, "hey Nik - try shifting in to the big ring up front," or "try going two clicks down on the rear," was a tremendous help for her.
I concur with all of this. I have met and ridden with several people who dread hills because they have no idea how to shift, or that a hill is an exercise in making a plan and following through. That is what an automatic could never do: if it's algorithm is simply "maintain cadence in range X", how does it know when you want to mash a small hill to put out crazy power, or when you want to crest hard. If you naturally fade at hill crests, this will simply exacerbate the fade.

I am not a car guy. However, it seems to me that part of why automatics work fine is that they are not running at max HP the overwhelming majority of the time. There is always torque and power available to apply more if a shift is less than optimal. Or if there isn't power, you preemptively drop out overdrive, or put it in "2" (disclaimer: I have never owned an automatic, but have driven them). On a bicycle, riding at FTP, if your tranny shifts a way that exceeds output either in rpm or torque, you have a limited band for recovery.

But if someone wants an automatic, just buy a single speed. I can say with absolute certainty that mine is always in the right gear, always anticipates what gear I wish to be in, and never jars me with an unexpected move. Flawless shifting guaranteed, or your money back.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:27 PM
  #48  
BillyD
Administrator
 
BillyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 29,490

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92

Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9095 Post(s)
Liked 2,778 Times in 1,577 Posts
How about a readout on your computer that measures you when you get on the bike then tells you how far you need to ride today to make a dent in your fat ass?
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
BillyD is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:52 PM
  #49  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 35,411

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 346 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17325 Post(s)
Liked 6,029 Times in 3,116 Posts
Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
Sounds like a crutch that would keep new riders from ever achieving their full capabilities on the bike since they would be limited by what gear the bike feels they should be in. Maybe beneficial in the short term but at the same time not so much.
I don't disagree with your analogy, but I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. Where you seem to think of a crutch as a permanent solution, I'll point out that they're often temporary aids. For people that are unsure of when and why to shift, I think that it could help them explore their potential and help dramatically shorten the learning curve.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 01-16-14, 02:57 PM
  #50  
RPK79
Custom User Title
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Posts: 11,239

Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Quintana Roo Kilo

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2862 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I don't disagree with your analogy, but I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. Where you seem to think of a crutch as a permanent solution, I'll point out that they're often temporary aids. For people that are unsure of when and why to shift, I think that it could help them explore their potential and help dramatically shorten the learning curve.
Possibly. It would likely be an expensive set of "training wheels" though. I'm all for innovation I just don't see this as a worthwhile piece of technology. If they think it is and that they can turn a profit on it more power to them.
RPK79 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.