Dunbar

My last bike was 9sp 105 and I went looking for a narrow q factor compact double crank. There were about 1/20th as many options in 9sp cranks compared to 10sp cranks. I don't think 10sp is going away for a while but once the industry moves onto 11sp it will get progressively harder to find what you want in terms of 10sp components.

dtrain

Come on, it's not that hard and you are both mostly right. New cassettes and chains (and some lightly used components) should be no problem for a long, long time. NOS and specific individual items (like Dunbar's example) will be much harder.

BoSoxYacht

For the record, when did I insult you?

I don't want to buy used parts(how can you really be sure of their condition),and new 7800 shifters are not plentiful.

I'm sorry that you don't like my questions.

Bah Humbug

I bet he's referring to the "luddite" comment.

Standalone 

It was the "luddite" comment.

Has anyone ever called you a _______________?

... I thought better of it. I can't afford any of the stuff y'all are talking about in this thread, even the old crap, anyway. I am putting together a bike with beat up 5500 and consider myself a lucky and blessed man.

BoSoxYacht

The fact is, he seems to be a little bit stubborn about upgrading.

I have a 1986 Colnago with Campagnolo SR, but my modern bike gets most of my miles.

Jiggle

Why would you think I am stubborn about upgrading? I have bikes that run the gamut from Tiagra through Dura Ace. Each gruppo has its pricepoint and use.

The 105 pricepoint, in my opinion, doesn't lend itself to upgrading for the sake of upgrading. If I have to have the best all the time, I'll be getting a new DA gruppo whenever one comes out. 105 is for functionality and absence of desireability. Yeah, because you don't want other people looking at your commuter bike with desire in their eyes. Ooooh, check out that new 5800! brb with my grinder.....

11 speed wouldn't even be an upgrade for the 105, philosophically. It would be less durable.

Now, all that is debatable. But saying you should buy 11 spd now because you won't be able to find replacement parts for 10 speed? Come on.

Bah Humbug

He is. I heard the same argument about 10-speed, which had just hit 105-level when I started riding. Back then, 9 speeds "were plenty. What, do you like buying chains? Expensive chains? How much will one extra cog get you anyway?" Fast forward five years... same argument. I'm sure it's been the same before, and it'll happen again.

My mother is still stunned from when I told her "ten speed" now referred to the number of cogs, not total combinations.

Bah Humbug

Are you suggesting that 105 not receive a new cog as trickle-down for the first time, ever? What makes this one different? Why is ten the place to stop?

Jiggle

I don't understand. 9-11 speed Shimano cranks are interchangeable and dimensionally identical where it counts. You have your pick.

Jiggle

Why is 11 the place to stop? Or 12? In Shimano's eyes, they need to go n+1 to attract new buyers. I argue that this is useful to us on the high end groups, but not on 105 and below.

Car companies do the same thing. A sedan model will start small, then get larger and more expensive every year. You can't keep on buying Nissan Maxima's if you like cheap, compact sedans. The Maxima is now a full size, 3600lb sedan. So you are forced to buy a different model.

In ten years I will be forced to buy Acera for my inexpensive gruppo.

Jiggle

10 speed makes sense now because time has amortized the costs. It wasn't sensible at the time it came out for a 105 level philosophy. But now we are supposed to anticipate the next release of a useless cog on a 4th tier groupset?

Dunbar

Not all 10sp cranks are advertised as 9sp compatible (I bought an FSA crank BTW). A 10sp crank can cause rubbing noises if you run it with a wider 9sp chain on it. I'd be surprised if an 11sp crank worked well on a 9sp group.

BoSoxYacht

Jiggle, I didn't mean to offend you by asking if you've ever been called a Luddite.

Bah Humbug

You realize that the cost amortization happens fastest when the tech trickles down? What you're saying makes no sense. You want the tech to have trickled down a while ago, but never have trickled down today before getting there. Buy another round of 5700, if that's how you feel, and your next group can be 5800. Once you feel 11-speed is "old enough".

Bah Humbug

And you're making a distinction that doesn't exist. All levels slowly increase cogs, in order, top to bottom. Advancement doesn't occur only at the DA/ Ultegra levels and remain stagnant at the others. That would make no sense. Do you want DA to go to 12 speeds and 105 to stick at eight?

zymphad

Considering the price of the 105, I'm surprised that it's coming in Di2. Di2 will add another $500 wouldn't it? Ultrega and Ultrega Di2 are really different in pricing.

Eh, I would think maybe next year 105 will go 11 speed. I really hope Shimano comes up with something similar to SRAM's FD 22. That's something I think should be standard on all FDs, 20 years ago. I really hope Shimano doesn't just add that to Dura Ace and wait 3 years for that to trickle down to 105, I hope it comes now.

Jiggle

It's cool bro.

Jiggle

Di2 adds a little complexity to the derailleurs, but saves a lot of complexity and precision parts in the shifters. Instead of testing, producing, manufacturing, and assembling fifty parts in a shifter, you can put a common electric motor on a derailleur and feed it a cheap electrical signal to shift.

We know electronics and electric motors are cheap, so why is Di2 expensive? I'd guess development costs and scarcity. Now that the expensive groups have paid off the development costs and manufacturing methods have been smoothed out, 105i2 should at least be the same cost to make as mechanical.

Jiggle

It only keeps going that way because of demand. I'd argue that that demand shouldn't be there. If 5700 was 8 speeds, it would have encouraged my buying decision because of increased durability.

On reflection, if I only had enough money to buy 105, and was trying to get the best group possible, 11 speeds would be a selling point. Maybe that is the attraction.

BoSoxYacht

Cool.

BoSoxYacht

Hey Jiggle,

Seriously, do you have friends that call you a Luddite or a curmudgeon?

I don't mean this in a bad way.

Jiggle

Friends? What friends?

BoSoxYacht

I'm pretty sure that was my initial answer

kv501

A guy at work asked about my bike, and when I told him how Di2 works he got excited until I told him it's an 11 speed. He got a look on his face like, "that's all?" because he had an 18 speed back in 1987.