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H Plus Son Archetype

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H Plus Son Archetype

Old 03-12-14, 07:56 AM
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I have some worn out mavic cxp 33 rims that I need to replace on a campy chorus wheelset. I've been thinking of going with the kinlin rims to replace them because they seem to be the only ones to offer 36 holes (unless you go direct to taiwan to get the archetypes and then pay the $$ shipping). Not sure the 25-50 grams/rim will make that much difference given that bike+rider weight is in the 210-215 pound range even though I do live amongst a fair bit of hills. Do either of them cause much difficulty mounting tires that I'd want thin tape or veloplugs instead of my usual velox? I've been considering the veloplugs option anyway just to try something different.
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Old 03-12-14, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau
I have some worn out mavic cxp 33 rims that I need to replace on a campy chorus wheelset. I've been thinking of going with the kinlin rims to replace them because they seem to be the only ones to offer 36 holes (unless you go direct to taiwan to get the archetypes and then pay the $$ shipping). Not sure the 25-50 grams/rim will make that much difference given that bike+rider weight is in the 210-215 pound range even though I do live amongst a fair bit of hills. Do either of them cause much difficulty mounting tires that I'd want thin tape or veloplugs instead of my usual velox? I've been considering the veloplugs option anyway just to try something different.
I think the weight difference will be closer to 25g than 50. And for me, at 175, is doesn't matter. I actually have a wheelset with the Kinlins and one with A23 (~450g each) with other wise similar builds so a very good comparison.

I started out with Veloplugs in my Kinlins but they actually didn't stay in too well (they were the red as recommended by BHS). I was always worried one would fall out so I ran a strip of scotch tape around to hold them. But at some point I just went back to cloth tape. I mount Conti and Michelin tires on them without to much trouble. If they are new tires there might be some sweat and cursing involved but after they have been on for a bit it's fine.
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Old 03-12-14, 08:29 AM
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Good to know about the veloplugs. Probably stick with the velox tape then.
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Old 03-12-14, 08:51 AM
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Just to add more confusion to this thread - FLO Cycling just announced they'll be selling the Flo 30 as a rim only for $80 each.

Flo Cycling Blog: FLO Cycling - The FLO 30 Rim is Here!
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Old 03-12-14, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dmcdam
Just to add more confusion to this thread - FLO Cycling just announced they'll be selling the Flo 30 as a rim only for $80 each.

Flo Cycling Blog: FLO Cycling - The FLO 30 Rim is Here!
Chunky and funky. I like it.

I have a set of Dura Ace hubs I bought for no good reason other than they were a bargain. This might be a good match.
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Old 03-12-14, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dmcdam
Just to add more confusion to this thread - FLO Cycling just announced they'll be selling the Flo 30 as a rim only for $80 each.
Right. It's a 570g rim with tolerances that are +/- 20g for $80.00.

That makes it heavy, with large variations in weight and over priced.

Pass.
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Old 03-12-14, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by canam73
Chunky and funky. I like it.

I have a set of Dura Ace hubs I bought for no good reason other than they were a bargain. This might be a good match.
I can't say how they ride yet - my new bike is still being built up. Visually they're pretty great and the guys at Flo certainly seem to have done their homework on the design. I'd love to see a custom build with these.
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Old 03-12-14, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
Right. It's a 570g rim with tolerances that are +/- 20g for $80.00.

That makes it heavy, with large variations in weight and over priced.

Pass.
I saw the weight listing, but figured it may be a typo.

The front wheel of the their set has a list weight of 725. Taking out the rim it would only leave 150g for the spokes, nipples and hub.

But even so, I have wheelset with some older 550g mavics. When I'm not racing what does it matter?
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Old 03-12-14, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
Right. It's a 570g rim with tolerances that are +/- 20g for $80.00.

That makes it heavy, with large variations in weight and over priced.

Pass.
On the heavier side okay, but I'm a clyde and their builds are rated up to 240lbs so I'm okay with a bit of extra weight. Not sure about the tolerances as I haven't seen other rim company's published numbers. That said, there's been plenty of posts about wheels coming in over published weights so perhaps not too unusual? Price wise, at Prowheelbuilder.com, a price of $80 puts them higher than Kinlin's and H+Son's, but below Pacenti and HED's.
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Old 03-12-14, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by canam73
I saw the weight listing, but figured it may be a typo.

The front wheel of the their set has a list weight of 725. Taking out the rim it would only leave 150g for the spokes, nipples and hub.

But even so, I have wheelset with some older 550g mavics. When I'm not racing what does it matter?
I really don't understand the appeal of this brand.

These rims are very heavy which, to me, is a design issue.

What is most troubling is the +/- 20g tolerance. That's 7%! The KinLin rims and the alloy rims we make are +/-5g. It's extruded alloy and a basic pin and sleeve. That should be pretty easy to control.

Glue on a non-structural faring and you have every rim they make.

Not a fan.
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Old 03-12-14, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
I really don't understand the appeal of this brand.

These rims are very heavy which, to me, is a design issue.

What is most troubling is the +/- 20g tolerance. That's 7%! The KinLin rims and the alloy rims we make are +/-5g. It's extruded alloy and a basic pin and sleeve. That should be pretty easy to control.

Glue on a non-structural faring and you have every rim they make.

Not a fan.
For road racing, I understand your dislike. But the bold section, incorrect.

The XC 279 was originally listed as 472g. My 4 rims were all over 480. And I have seen recent weighing at 497. The XR300s I built were 15 and 20g over list, and I know Psimet has commented that getting the 270 over the 300 to save weight won't always work because he has had them weigh just as much and they list at 20g apart. Fwiw, my A23s are also overweight, but I did have set of Kinlin XR19Ws and some other Velocitys that were spot on. I don't remember if I weighed any of my mavics or HEDs.
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Old 03-12-14, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
I really don't understand the appeal of this brand.

These rims are very heavy which, to me, is a design issue.

What is most troubling is the +/- 20g tolerance. That's 7%! The KinLin rims and the alloy rims we make are +/-5g. It's extruded alloy and a basic pin and sleeve. That should be pretty easy to control.

Glue on a non-structural faring and you have every rim they make.

Not a fan.
Have you read up on them at all? They've done a lot of research and concluded that in most cases, aero trumps weight. Therefore they want to build wheels that maximize aero advantages, with a little bit of a weight penalty to keep prices down. Their wheels have been tested pretty extensively in wind tunnels and the data is impressive.

The Flo 30 in a clyde build with Sapim CX rays rated up to 240+ pounds at 1652g for $498.00 is a pretty good deal from the comparison shopping I did. Same weight as the Boyd Altamont clyde build, but at $152 less.
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Old 03-12-14, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dmcdam
Have you read up on them at all? They've done a lot of research and concluded that in most cases, aero trumps weight. Therefore they want to build wheels that maximize aero advantages, with a little bit of a weight penalty to keep prices down. Their wheels have been tested pretty extensively in wind tunnels and the data is impressive.

The Flo 30 in a clyde build with Sapim CX rays rated up to 240+ pounds at 1652g for $498.00 is a pretty good deal from the comparison shopping I did. Same weight as the Boyd Altamont clyde build, but at $152 less.
If by extensively you mean against only Mavic open pros, one of the least aero wheels out there. Why didn't the test against Zipp/Enve/Reynolds carbon wheels with similar depths?
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Old 03-12-14, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
I really don't understand the appeal of this brand.

These rims are very heavy which, to me, is a design issue.

What is most troubling is the +/- 20g tolerance. That's 7%! The KinLin rims and the alloy rims we make are +/-5g. It's extruded alloy and a basic pin and sleeve. That should be pretty easy to control.

Glue on a non-structural faring and you have every rim they make.

Not a fan.
Bob, what I have been told is that as the extruder die wears, size of the opening increases, and the extrusion becomes heavier. This fits well with my experience in plastics molding and extrusion. As I understand it, most Al rim makers start with dies that give lighter than nominal weights and continue using those dies until the rims weigh the allowed amount over nominal. It is not as much about control as tolerance and philosophy. Companies that ship rims with +/- 20 g tolerance simply choose to run their dies that long to save money. They start them off really small and keep on going until +20g over nominal is reached. I have never had an overweight rim from Kinlin. Velocity is among the worst for wide weight tolerance IMO.
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Old 03-12-14, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97
If by extensively you mean against only Mavic open pros, one of the least aero wheels out there. Why didn't the test against Zipp/Enve/Reynolds carbon wheels with similar depths?
I don't really see of the head-to-head data you're looking for on Zipp's website at all - does that mean their wheels aren't aero? In fact, the writeup for the Zipp 30 specifically tests head to head against a box section rim??? Guess their wheels suck.
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Old 03-12-14, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dmcdam
I don't really see of the head-to-head data you're looking for on Zipp's website at all - does that mean their wheels aren't aero? In fact, the writeup for the Zipp 30 specifically tests head to head against a box section rim??? Guess their wheels suck.
I never said anything about their actual performance. I wasn't the one hyping their extensive wind tunnel testing though
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Old 03-12-14, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97
I never said anything about their actual performance. I wasn't the one hyping their extensive wind tunnel testing though
I wasn't hyping anything. I was simply saying that the claimed aero advantages with Flo wheels are backed with data. I don't see a whole lot of data for H+Son, Kinlin's, or even Belgium's to back up their aerodynamic claims.
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Old 03-12-14, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dmcdam
I wasn't hyping anything. I was simply saying that the claimed aero advantages with Flo wheels are backed with data. I don't see a whole lot of data for H+Son, Kinlin's, or even Belgium's to back up their aerodynamic claims.
i have never heard of any of those rims even being claimed as being "aerodynamic"?
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Old 03-12-14, 04:21 PM
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^ Really? I've certainly heard the claim that wider (23 vs ~19) is more aero...maybe that's what he means?
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Old 03-12-14, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sosojeffcc
i have never heard of any of those rims even being claimed as being "aerodynamic"?
Look up the description for HED Belgiums on the Wheelbuilder website. Look up any description for Kinlin or H+son archetypes on the various custom Wheelbuilder sites. They're all referred to as "aero" rims, either regarding either the depth or the wider widths.
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Old 03-12-14, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dtrain
^ Really? I've certainly heard the claim that wider (23 vs ~19) is more aero...maybe that's what he means?
I guess more and more people bought into that hype. The aero claim that Flo and Zipp have is around the toroidal shape of the rims, not just simply from the fact that the rims are wide.

The typical benefit of a wider profile is a ride that is more like a tubular setups, but the thing i noticed most was better handling, since the 23mm tire shape has less of a bulb-like profile when it sits on a 23mm brake track.
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Old 03-12-14, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dmcdam
Look up the description for HED Belgiums on the Wheelbuilder website. Look up any description for Kinlin or H+son archetypes on the various custom Wheelbuilder sites. They're all referred to as "aero" rims, either regarding either the depth or the wider widths.
just checked on wheelbuilder.com for HED belgium, and again, nothing about being aero.

That being said tho, the Flo 30's do look like a mighty good option, especially with that toroidal shape much like the zipp 101's.
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Old 03-12-14, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sosojeffcc
just checked on wheelbuilder.com for HED belgium, and again, nothing about being aero.

That being said tho, the Flo 30's do look like a mighty good option, especially with that toroidal shape much like the zipp 101's.
From Wheelbuilder.com:

HED named their C2 series rims after the lower coefficient of rolling resistance (Crr) and higher aerodynamics (Cda) provided by the 23mm wide rims. With 23c tires, the C2 rim creates a constant tire profile, rather than getting pinched into the rim. The overall ride quality is improved and the result is tubular-like ride quality from a clincher tire. The smooth transition from the tire to the edge of the rim allows laminar air flow and lower aerodynamic drag.
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Old 03-12-14, 04:53 PM
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oops...guess i didn't click into the details page.
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Old 03-12-14, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sosojeffcc
oops...guess i didn't click into the details page.
The HED site also has some charts where they match each of their wheels against a "Standard OE Wheel". At least FLO tells you who they are up against (even if they are shooting fish in a barrel).
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