How Hard Can It Be?
03-17-14, 11:17 AM
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How Hard Can It Be?
Specialized Venge (Courtesy)
Originally Posted by "Berne Broudy -- bicycling.com"
...A high-performance bike like Specialized's Venge, shown [above], requires about 400 individual pieces of carbon. Each color represents a different thickness of the carbon tubes....
So if I could find an image like that (and I wasn't even looking for it), and if a regular Schmo like me (who's not even interested in the subject of carbon layup) could figure out the places on a frame to vary the thickness of how carbon is laid up to give certain ride characteristics, then nobody can tell me that the Cycling Yong reproductions out there are all that far off from the frames they've reverse-engineered.
How hard can it be? It's not like mastering a CAD program and gluing strips of fabric together is on a par with finding the Higgs boson or something!
03-17-14, 11:25 AM
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Specialized Venge (Courtesy)
I'm neither an engineer, nor a CAD operator, nor a carbon layer upper. But I could figure out -- from the above CAD image -- where to vary the thickness of carbon for the different parts of a frame so that it would then have riding properties similar to the frame in the above CAD image.
So if I could find an image like that (and I wasn't even looking for it), and if a regular Schmo like me (who's not even interested in the subject of carbon layup) could figure out the places on a frame to vary the thickness of how carbon is laid up to give certain ride characteristics, then nobody can tell me that the Cycling Yong reproductions out there are all that far off from the frames they've reverse-engineered.
How hard can it be? It's not like mastering a CAD program and gluing strips of fabric together is on a par with finding the Higgs boson or something!
03-17-14, 11:28 AM
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Specialized Venge (Courtesy)
I'm neither an engineer, nor a CAD operator, nor a carbon layer upper. But I could figure out -- from the above CAD image -- where to vary the thickness of carbon for the different parts of a frame so that it would then have riding properties similar to the frame in the above CAD image.
So if I could find an image like that (and I wasn't even looking for it), and if a regular Schmo like me (who's not even interested in the subject of carbon layup) could figure out the places on a frame to vary the thickness of how carbon is laid up to give certain ride characteristics, then nobody can tell me that the Cycling Yong reproductions out there are all that far off from the frames they've reverse-engineered.
How hard can it be? It's not like mastering a CAD program and gluing strips of fabric together is on a par with finding the Higgs boson or something!
03-17-14, 11:34 AM
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I think OP's point is that a Chinese company that manufactures carbon frames could do a lot with this information, helping them make a much closer replica of a Venge. If it's 80% as good for 10% of the price, one might go "hmmmm"
03-17-14, 11:36 AM
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And lest anybody wants to play the old, "Chinese engineers are inferior" card, I challenge them to remember all those exceptionally high-achieving Asian kids they came across in high school. All those enviably-smart Asian lab assistants, TAs and graduate researchers you came across in college. How inferior were they?
03-17-14, 11:45 AM
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Meh, they figured out the carbon, the frame design, the funky colours, but they still didn't quite get the idea that the wheels are supposed to be, you know, round. That flat spot on the front would make one heckuva clunk with each rotation.
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03-17-14, 11:50 AM
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And lest anybody wants to play the old, "Chinese engineers are inferior" card, I challenge them to remember all those exceptionally high-achieving Asian kids they came across in high school. All those enviably-smart Asian lab assistants, TAs and graduate researchers you came across in college. How inferior were they?
Color me impressed.
03-17-14, 11:57 AM
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I would wager that it isn't hard to figure out what's shown in that diagram. If it were, Specialized wouldn't be putting the diagram out there.
The precise details underlying it are likely to be a different matter.
The precise details underlying it are likely to be a different matter.
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03-17-14, 11:58 AM
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and lest anybody wants to play the old, "chinese engineers are inferior" card, i challenge them to remember all those exceptionally high-achieving asian kids they came across in high school. All those enviably-smart asian lab assistants, tas and graduate researchers you came across in college. How inferior were they?
03-17-14, 12:26 PM
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Yeah, I was gonna say that image doesn't tell the OP shi*t about how to build a carbon fiber bike. Not a thing.
03-17-14, 12:28 PM
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And lest anybody wants to play the old, "Chinese engineers are inferior" card, I challenge them to remember all those exceptionally high-achieving Asian kids they came across in high school. All those enviably-smart Asian lab assistants, TAs and graduate researchers you came across in college. How inferior were they?
03-17-14, 08:27 PM
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03-17-14, 09:55 PM
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03-18-14, 04:34 AM
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Way to selectively ignore my very explicitly-presented points!
But I forgive your oversight because I can tell that attention to detail is not a prerequisite in your line of work.
If these Cheesehead frat boys (
) can figure out which menu items and drop-down choices to click on in their Finite Element Analysis program in order to do neat stuff like the following, why can't the Chinese professional carbon engineers do it?
If these Cheesehead frat boys (
) can figure out which menu items and drop-down choices to click on in their Finite Element Analysis program in order to do neat stuff like the following, why can't the Chinese professional carbon engineers do it?
Last edited by BikeLockHolmes; 03-18-14 at 04:45 AM.
03-18-14, 04:47 AM
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They could if they wanted to but then it would cost a lot more, wouldn't it.
And then there's the QC aspect of the thing. Carbon products have a very high QC fail rate but if you don't do QC you'll never find them, will you.
OP, since you admit to knowing nothing about carbon why does a funky gif convince you that it can't be all that hard?
Does it show you anything about pressures, temps or bake times?
And engineers don't lay up the carbon, low paid Chinese workers do. With a labour turn over rate around 20% it's pretty hard to make consistent product, non?
I don't know how much more fail can be packed into a single post.
Impressive.
And then there's the QC aspect of the thing. Carbon products have a very high QC fail rate but if you don't do QC you'll never find them, will you.
OP, since you admit to knowing nothing about carbon why does a funky gif convince you that it can't be all that hard?
Does it show you anything about pressures, temps or bake times?
And engineers don't lay up the carbon, low paid Chinese workers do. With a labour turn over rate around 20% it's pretty hard to make consistent product, non?
I don't know how much more fail can be packed into a single post.
Impressive.
03-18-14, 04:49 AM
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03-18-14, 05:14 AM
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This thread is to Chinese frames as the Talking While Riding Is Hard thread is to FTP.
03-18-14, 05:27 AM
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Specialized Venge (Courtesy)
I'm neither an engineer, nor a CAD operator, nor a carbon layer upper. But I could figure out -- from the above CAD image -- where to vary the thickness of carbon for the different parts of a frame so that it would then have riding properties similar to the frame in the above CAD image.
So if I could find an image like that (and I wasn't even looking for it), and if a regular Schmo like me (who's not even interested in the subject of carbon layup) could figure out the places on a frame to vary the thickness of how carbon is laid up to give certain ride characteristics, then nobody can tell me that the Cycling Yong reproductions out there are all that far off from the frames they've reverse-engineered.
How hard can it be? It's not like mastering a CAD program and gluing strips of fabric together is on a par with finding the Higgs boson or something!
You are off to a flying start.
03-18-14, 05:54 AM
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I don't have time for all this talk. I have a Venge to make this morning.
Now where did I put that mold? Mary, have you seen my pre-preg? No, not our teenage daughter, the sticky fabric I had sitting in the kitchen cabinet.
Hey, do we know anyone with a bigger oven?
...
Now where did I put that mold? Mary, have you seen my pre-preg? No, not our teenage daughter, the sticky fabric I had sitting in the kitchen cabinet.
Hey, do we know anyone with a bigger oven?
...