roadr05

I'm looking to get a steel frame road bike . Problem is, I don't know the difference between how the different types of steel frames ride.
Does anyone know the difference between Cr-Mo; Reynolds #xxx vs. Reynolds #yyy, etc.?

I'm not worried about upkeep - I plan to take care of the bike!! I also know Hi-Ten is cheap, so that's out of the question -- but the rest??

Any help is greatly appreciated -- Thanks

Retro Grouch 

You're asking for a heap of information.

Steel is an alloy of iron, carbon and usually some other stuff. What we're talking about is the other stuff. Alloying metals like chrome, maganese and a host of others affect the characteristics of the steel. They give it more tensile strength and make it possible to draw the steel into thinner walled tubes and still retain adequate strength for bicycle use.

The tubeing manufacturers make up tube sets from a variety of alloys and with a variety of wall thicknesses. Sometimes the make up of the tube set requires a certain joining method to be used.

The bottom line is that you don't ride on a tube set, you ride on a bicycle. Everything works together to produce a product that will sell at a certain price and feel a certain way when you ride it. My advice is to ride on several bikes that are in your price range, buy the one that feels best to you, and don't worry about the details.

53-11_alltheway

https://strongframes.com/tech_geeks_l...=171&copyID=98

There's the different levels of quality in steel tubing. The higher strength stuff just lets the manufacturer draw the tubes thinner and thus save weight.

Mark77

A friend of mine recently bought a Landshark. They are a legendary steel bike maker in these parts. He's a machinist and spent some time explaining to me how they make use of a very high quality steel from Italy to construct their frames. Their bikes are frequently recognizable by the unique paint jobs.

Check 'em out here

https://www.landsharkbicycles.com/

dexmax

A few things i can add..

Reynolds 525
Non heat treated chromoly has been in Reynolds inventory of bicycle tubes for many years. Since 1998 it has been reconfigured and up graded to a strength level very similar to that of Reynolds legendary 531 tubing. The primary reason for it existence is its ability to be tig welded, thus producing lower cost and lower quality frames.

Reynolds 631
Air Hardened tubing is a tubeset based on their 853 Air Hardened technology.

Reynolds 853
Reynolds 853 is a high strength, 210,00 psi, heat treated, air hardened steel alloy. Careful control of the alloying elements combine to give these tubes enhanced mechanical properties surpassing other materials currently available. The main advantage of Reynolds 853 is its ability to air harden after joining, a characteristic not shown by other chrome molybdenum / manganese molybdenum materials presently on the market. When building frames using either TIG welding or high temperature brazing, above 1600 degrees, the joints increase in strength as the frame cools to room temperature.The primary difference between 853 and 631 is the lack of heat treating applied to the an 853 tubeset, thus producing 631 tubing.

Reynolds 753
This was the benchmark by which all high performance bicycle frames have been judged for the last 20 years. Possessing a 195,000 psi tensile is among the strongest tubes currently available for the manufacture of high performance, light weight, ultra responsive road frames. This tubing uniquely combines terrific power transmission ability, lively ride, responsiveness and a high degree of comfort, while producing some of the lightest frames available.


Hope this was wat you were looking for. =)

Dex

iowarose

Those Landshark bicycles are amazing. Now I know what to save my money for...

Trekke

Steel rides great!

All you need to know.

55/Rad

I agree! With one caveat. Not all steel rides great. Not all aluminum is harsh. Not all generalities are truth.

55/Rad

Trekke

That is three caveat's. You are over your limit.

sydney

And so old school and difficlut to work with you may not even find it today.Too much heat made it brittle,cannot be welded,and Reynolds only released it to builders that could could pass their test on joining it....No lack of other current stuff that can be just as light with with fewer negative atrbutes.

55/Rad

Why are you nitpicking over someone's elses post? Don't you have a brand new bike just staring at you?

I, on the other hand, have an excuse. I am on vacation with the family in Sunriver Oregon and there isn't a bike anywhere to be found until next Wednesday.

Don't make me come over there and break in that Sarthe for you.

55/Rad

sydney

Yeah....All too many of the details will be barnyard waste anyway.

alanbikehouston

Some BMX bikes are made with "plain" 4130 Chro-Mo steel. Not as light as some of the fancy stuff from Reynolds or Columbus. But, 4130 may be ideal for BMX bikes and heavy touring bikes. The tubes can be designed to flex a bit to soften shock.

Will last through millions of cycles of stress without breaking. If a tube or fork gets bent a bit, it can be re-aligned. And, the skill level required to repair 4130 steel is available in most places around the world...a bike that the village blacksmith could fix. Some of the "fancy" steel tubes can not be forced back into alignment if bent (they are too brittle, like carbon and aluminum), and require a high level of skill to replace or repair.

My nephew has a 4130 BMX bike that he trys to break. He looks for stuff to run the bike over, or to fly off from. The frame and fork are still in perfect shape. In ten thousand years, the only things left from 2005 Houston will be the cockroaches, and my nephew's BMX bike.

Back in the '70's, a good road bike made with 4130 might have weighed half a pound more than a comparable bike made with Reynolds 531...it was never the "snobs" favorite...just good solid steel that lasts for decades. And, because "bike snobs" can never be troubled by actual facts, snobs never knew that the Ultimate strength and yield strength of 4130 was identical to 531, both before, and after brazing.

sydney

Yeah, no doubt,if ya live in the 3rd world 4130 would be considered premium tubing.

Dahon.Steve

Is there any bicycle in production that uses 753? Or is this a Reynolds alloy that is gone forever?

I have an old chromoly bike (Univega) with low level tubes that's heavy as hell. Yet it feels so plush because the frame absorbes all the ruts, bumps and man hole covers on the road like a front suspension fork!

I lose some of the plushness on my Bianchi Volpe (Reynolds 525) because the frame feels more stiff and the wheel base is shorter. My Bianchi Eros (Reynolds 631) is even lighter and I lose even more of the plushness but this is the tradeoff for increased speed.

lala

My one question regarding the landsharks: why are the paint jobs so nasty?! (There's no accounting for taste, I guess.)

Mark77

Those abstract paint jobs are an option. It appears that a lot of buyers like them or I wouldn't be seeing so many. But it's natural that they wouldn't appeal to everyone, which includes you I guess.

nycduncan

Don't get caught in in the tube makers sticker. You can get good steel from :US, Japanese, Italian & British manufacturers.

Here is a link to break down some tube differences
https://www.torelli.com/home.html?htt...matdesn.html&1

gattm99

Columbus tubesets based on Nivachrome are very good.

Nessism

My turn to chime in

The stiffness of a tube is determined by two factors: the modulus of elasticity (E) and a shape factor called the area moment of inertia (I).

"E" for steel is the same regardless of the alloy. This is a very important factor because it doesn't matter how strong the tube is, it will flex just the same as a weaker tube so long as the physical dimensions are the same.

"I" for tubing increases exponentionally with diameter. So it's easy to realize that a fairly small increase in tube size has a noticeable effect on the tubes stiffness.

Where higher strength alloys come into play is in that the tubes can be made larger in diameter and thinner while still retaining a reasonable strength level.

Frames made from thin tubes may be lighter but they are also more fragile to denting. This is one of the tradeoffs that must be considered.

For a lugged frame which is constrained to diameters which match the lugs, super high strength tubing is not needed. Most framebuilders pick the tubes to match the desired ride quality, not to achieve some target weight. Lugged frames usually have medium thick tubes and medium alloys can handle the stresses. Using super high strength tubes in medium thickness is a waste since the stresses are never high enough to approach the critical level. Most general consumption frames are built to this same sensibility - reasonable thickness for good longevity.

Hope this info helps.


Ed

Trekke

RAD the family thing is making you a bit on edge. Not nitpicking just makeing sure we only get our fair share of caviats.

Back to the Sarthe - I may just sleep with her tonight.

roadr05

Just wanted to give a quick THANKS to all of you!
I had no idea what I was getting into with this question, but now I know. Was able to learn mucho about steel thanks to your info.
You guys/gals are the best!

MichaelW

>>Lugged frames usually have medium thick tubes and medium >>alloys can handle the stresses. Using super high strength >>tubes in medium thickness is a waste since the stresses are >>never high enough to approach the critical level.

That reynolds 753 tubing was pretty good but was never really used in production frames, it was more for custom builders.
It was a very thin-walled ultra-light tubeset, and could only be built up using lugs and low-temperature silver soldering.

Nessism

753 frames are noodles because the tubes were thinned out without increasing the diameter to compensate. The metal was also very sensitive to brazing heat which made it difficult to work with.

Thankfully, Reynolds discontinued 753 a while back. 853 is just as strong but doesn't have any of the strength loss issues. And speaking about 853, and air-hardening alloys in general, they help ham fisted builders by being more fault tollerant but beyond that, they don't contribute all that much. The air hardening creates a hard spot on the tube at the weld point which is not really a problem at the joints, but can be a problem if the hard spot is located in the center of the tube since it creates a stress consentration. Some unknowing builders were using TIG welding to attach the cable stops on some frames. The weld points on these frames created a stress consentration which leed to frame failures at these braze-on's. For this reason, Reynolds requires braze-on's to be attached with low temp silver brazing - similar to 753. At any rate, none of these issues are present on "regular" high strength alloys, just air-hardening alloys.

Not sure this info helps anyone but thought I'd share.

Ed