anyone sticking with 10 speed because they....
04-01-14, 08:33 PM
#51
Senior Member
I do have 3 bikes kitted out with 10-speed. Although most of my bikes are running 7-speed rear ends, including what I rode to work this AM.
Some history: The Shimano freehub spec has been stable for close to 20 years, and has been used for 8 to 9 to 10 cogs, with progressively narrower chains and cog spacing. But through this, the freehub width has remained constant.
With Shimano's move to 11-speed, they simply ran out of real estate to jam in more cogs. This resulted in a new wider freehub, which requires more rear wheel dish, closer hub flange spacing, and a larger differential between tensions on the drive and non-drive sides of the rear wheel. This means a weaker, flexier and generally less stable wheel. There is no upside to this - it is all bad.
Second, check out the relative costs of 10 and 11 speed cassettes and chains. I went through 4 1/2 chains and at least one cassette in 2013. YMMV. Factor this extra cost into your upgrade decision.
Finally, adopting 11 speed plays into an increasingly absurd game of planned obsolescence that is imposed on us by the manufacturers. Is the 5-year cycle of simply 'adding another cog' going to get me to open up my wallet to buy a bunch of new stuff? No. Frankly it is joke; a transparent attempt to mask the lack of real innovation and progress in the bike industry. The sad bottom line is that this industry does not pay enough to get top-end design and engineering talent. There is some progress, such as the move to carbon, and electronic shifting, but genuine substantive progress in the bike industry is glacial relative to the bigger money markets such as computer hardware and software, and the auto biz.
Do I care if some gullible early adopter is drawn into making a foolish upgrade decision because they 'need' 11 speeds? No. However, it pisses me off when I constantly hear from bike shops and wholesalers that they cannot source 9-speed cassettes, because "everyone is going to 11-speed now, so they recommend a new bike."
Anyway, I am in the process of building up a 15 pound carbon bike. It is based on a 10-speed drivetrain, for a combination of the factors above. Plus because there is a whole bunch of heavily discounted 10-speed stuff tricking down via Ebay and wholesalers who are blowing it out.
Some history: The Shimano freehub spec has been stable for close to 20 years, and has been used for 8 to 9 to 10 cogs, with progressively narrower chains and cog spacing. But through this, the freehub width has remained constant.
With Shimano's move to 11-speed, they simply ran out of real estate to jam in more cogs. This resulted in a new wider freehub, which requires more rear wheel dish, closer hub flange spacing, and a larger differential between tensions on the drive and non-drive sides of the rear wheel. This means a weaker, flexier and generally less stable wheel. There is no upside to this - it is all bad.
Second, check out the relative costs of 10 and 11 speed cassettes and chains. I went through 4 1/2 chains and at least one cassette in 2013. YMMV. Factor this extra cost into your upgrade decision.
Finally, adopting 11 speed plays into an increasingly absurd game of planned obsolescence that is imposed on us by the manufacturers. Is the 5-year cycle of simply 'adding another cog' going to get me to open up my wallet to buy a bunch of new stuff? No. Frankly it is joke; a transparent attempt to mask the lack of real innovation and progress in the bike industry. The sad bottom line is that this industry does not pay enough to get top-end design and engineering talent. There is some progress, such as the move to carbon, and electronic shifting, but genuine substantive progress in the bike industry is glacial relative to the bigger money markets such as computer hardware and software, and the auto biz.
Do I care if some gullible early adopter is drawn into making a foolish upgrade decision because they 'need' 11 speeds? No. However, it pisses me off when I constantly hear from bike shops and wholesalers that they cannot source 9-speed cassettes, because "everyone is going to 11-speed now, so they recommend a new bike."
Anyway, I am in the process of building up a 15 pound carbon bike. It is based on a 10-speed drivetrain, for a combination of the factors above. Plus because there is a whole bunch of heavily discounted 10-speed stuff tricking down via Ebay and wholesalers who are blowing it out.
But yeah, "planned obsolescence," okay.
Most innovation is incremental and not exciting. That's true in the tech industry as well. Such is life.
04-01-14, 08:34 PM
#52
Senior Member
Oh, I'm still on 10-speed, by the way. Switching would be cost prohibitive, and I actually want to get my cross bike from 9 to 10 so I can share wheels between bikes more easily.
04-01-14, 08:38 PM
#53
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I have a bin full of 9-speed DA that I am holding onto in order to build up a road bike for my son. Man, that's a beautiful group.
04-01-14, 08:42 PM
#54
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Many people going with Dura Ace are doing it more for the improvements rather than the 11th gear. Several people did reviews here and love it
04-01-14, 09:10 PM
#55
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I ride in Florida, so I only need 3 gears:
Start
Cruise
Super Cruise...
S
Start
Cruise
Super Cruise...
S
04-01-14, 09:14 PM
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I just bought a utility road bike with 10-sp 105 without a second thought. I love the 6800 Ultegra on my good bike, but it's not because it's got 11 speeds.
04-01-14, 09:23 PM
#57
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I'm staying with 10 because if I don't, then I'll have to take off my shoes to be able to count how many speeds I have. I can't afford to take the time to do that.
Life's too short to worry about stuff like this...
Life's too short to worry about stuff like this...
Last edited by gc3; 04-01-14 at 09:29 PM.
04-01-14, 09:25 PM
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I'm on 5700 105 with 9000 cables and I'm pretty happy with the shift performance (it was pretty mediocre when I was running Jagwire cables.) I've been planning to upgrade to 6800 later this year. I had a chance to test ride a bike with 6800 and 6700 back-to-back and honestly couldn't feel much difference. I plan to try 6800 one more time and possibly 9000 but I need to actually feel a difference in rear shift quality to justify spending that kind of money. Until I spin out my 50x12 the extra cog on 11 speed systems seems superfluous.
Last edited by Dunbar; 04-01-14 at 09:28 PM.
04-01-14, 10:39 PM
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My current bikes have 5, 6, 7, and 8 cogs respectively. So I'd have to get 3 more bikes to work my way up to 11.
04-01-14, 10:50 PM
#61
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I'm on 5700 105 with 9000 cables and I'm pretty happy with the shift performance (it was pretty mediocre when I was running Jagwire cables.) I've been planning to upgrade to 6800 later this year. I had a chance to test ride a bike with 6800 and 6700 back-to-back and honestly couldn't feel much difference. I plan to try 6800 one more time and possibly 9000 but I need to actually feel a difference in rear shift quality to justify spending that kind of money. Until I spin out my 50x12 the extra cog on 11 speed systems seems superfluous.
__________________
"The older you do get, the more rules they're gonna try to get you to follow. You just gotta keep livin', man, L-I-V-I-N." - Wooderson
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"The older you do get, the more rules they're gonna try to get you to follow. You just gotta keep livin', man, L-I-V-I-N." - Wooderson
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04-01-14, 10:58 PM
#62
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I have 2x9 bikes and I have 2x10 bikes. Both have adequate lows and adequate highs. Somewhere in the 2x10 I have one ratio that is not quite so far apart from another as it is in the 2x9, but I couldn't tell you where it is if you held a gun to my head. So the "advantage" of 2x11 is completely lost on me.
04-01-14, 11:47 PM
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I just wanted to take a moment to note that "For every headwind, there's a tailwind" is not perfectly accurate. Technically, a cyclist is slowed by winds from directly ahead and also from the sides, from most angles. In short, wind from most directions has a negative affect on cycling speed, and relatively few wind directions are beneficial to the cyclist. Moreover, even when the wind direction is beneficial, that benefit is not as great as the negative impact of non-beneficial winds.
It also is worth noting that you lose more time going uphill than you gain going downhill, because of the greater amount of time spent going slowly uphill, as compared to the amount of time spent going downhill quickly.
IOW, you're pretty pretty much screwed no matter what, so there's really no point in even trying. You might as well stay home on the couch.
HTH!
It also is worth noting that you lose more time going uphill than you gain going downhill, because of the greater amount of time spent going slowly uphill, as compared to the amount of time spent going downhill quickly.
IOW, you're pretty pretty much screwed no matter what, so there's really no point in even trying. You might as well stay home on the couch.
HTH!
04-02-14, 12:03 AM
#65
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I just got all my bikes to 10 speed. I have a mix of 3x10 and 2x10. All of them have mountain derailleurs in the back so that I can toss on a fat cassette if needed. The ability to mix/match mountain and road groups is a big feature for me. The availability of a triple is also a needed feature for my touring bike.
Currently, I see 11 speed as a step backwards in terms of versatility, so I'll be sticking with 10 speed for the foreseeable future.
Currently, I see 11 speed as a step backwards in terms of versatility, so I'll be sticking with 10 speed for the foreseeable future.
04-02-14, 05:15 AM
#66
South Carolina Ed
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I just wanted to take a moment to note that "For every headwind, there's a tailwind" is not perfectly accurate. Technically, a cyclist is slowed by winds from directly ahead and also from the sides, from most angles. In short, wind from most directions has a negative affect on cycling speed, and relatively few wind directions are beneficial to the cyclist. Moreover, even when the wind direction is beneficial, that benefit is not as great as the negative impact of non-beneficial winds.
It also is worth noting that you lose more time going uphill than you gain going downhill, because of the greater amount of time spent going slowly uphill, as compared to the amount of time spent going downhill quickly.
IOW, you're pretty pretty much screwed no matter what, so there's really no point in even trying. You might as well stay home on the couch.
HTH!
It also is worth noting that you lose more time going uphill than you gain going downhill, because of the greater amount of time spent going slowly uphill, as compared to the amount of time spent going downhill quickly.
IOW, you're pretty pretty much screwed no matter what, so there's really no point in even trying. You might as well stay home on the couch.
HTH!
04-02-14, 05:22 AM
#67
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I'm sticking with 10 SPD because its more than enough. I read an article about 11 spd possibly being something that could even phase out. I don't know if I'd take it that far, but I don't see 10 spd ever not being available. Actually with the intro of 11 spd I can now get 10 spd parts for pretty cheap. I also don't want to spend the money to convert everything.
04-02-14, 06:25 AM
#69
Portland Fred
The only reason I don't run 9 which is less finicky and lasts longer is because the shifters I like aren't available for that configuration. I don't see 11 as an improvement -- all I need is to replace my wheels so I can have a yet more finicky and shorter lasting chain.
Those who need more gear selectivity would probably be better off with a triple since that will be both tighter and wider than an 11sp setup
Those who need more gear selectivity would probably be better off with a triple since that will be both tighter and wider than an 11sp setup
04-02-14, 06:37 AM
#70
Senior Member
I just got 10 spd. When my brifters wear out, since that's the most expensive part, I will upgrade to the 5800 11 spd. For now, 5700 I hope lasts me at least 2 more years.
For now, paying for wheels, cranks, chains and cogs is enough to make my budget cry. I'd much rather buy tickets to see a show to share with my gf than buy a new crank...
I see no point in converting a bike from 10spd to 11spd, financially makes more sense to buy a whole new bike. So sticking with 10spd? That's not really the question for me. It's more of, will I buy another 10spd or go up to 11 spd on my next bike.
For now, paying for wheels, cranks, chains and cogs is enough to make my budget cry. I'd much rather buy tickets to see a show to share with my gf than buy a new crank...
I see no point in converting a bike from 10spd to 11spd, financially makes more sense to buy a whole new bike. So sticking with 10spd? That's not really the question for me. It's more of, will I buy another 10spd or go up to 11 spd on my next bike.
Last edited by zymphad; 04-02-14 at 06:43 AM.
04-02-14, 06:39 AM
#71
pan y agua
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04-02-14, 06:40 AM
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I'm on 5700 105 with 9000 cables and I'm pretty happy with the shift performance (it was pretty mediocre when I was running Jagwire cables.) I've been planning to upgrade to 6800 later this year. I had a chance to test ride a bike with 6800 and 6700 back-to-back and honestly couldn't feel much difference. I plan to try 6800 one more time and possibly 9000 but I need to actually feel a difference in rear shift quality to justify spending that kind of money. Until I spin out my 50x12 the extra cog on 11 speed systems seems superfluous.
04-02-14, 06:43 AM
#73
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04-02-14, 06:44 AM
#74
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Having 7 bikes and 11 wheelsets that are 10 speed, switching over to 11speed would be a major PITA.
I don't see any compelling reason to do so.
I don't see any compelling reason to do so.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
04-02-14, 06:46 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel
Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.
To the extent that there's a point to the reference, other than pure humor, I think it would be that going to eleven doesn't make the bike any faster.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.