zymphad

I can expect some swaying. But looking at Cavendish his body remains straight and so do his shoulders, but you can see so many others who are not as fast as he is, shoulders, arms, elbows are all over the place.

I notice this a lot on my rides as well, not just watching on youtube. Swaying movement of the body, not just bike is prevalent IMO. I'm just curious why form and efficiency isn't emphasized in cycling like it is in other sports like swimming and running. Form and efficiency was always priority #1 and emphasized when I learned to run and swim. I just find it curious.

I would like to see more threads on Road section dedicated to form, and efficiency for new riders. Maybe even video tutorials. Plenty of advice on hardware and sometimes decent advice on fitting, but rarely on form and what exercises to do. For example, Cavendish has said he does a lot of core exercises to keep his body steady on the bike. I'd be interested what core exercises he does for example and what other cyclists do.

For example:
Runners have a number of exercises they do before training that train your body for good form. They train your body for high knee lift, proper arm movement and forward motion. In meets, I always see runners doing these same basic exercises before their race as warm ups, it just helps to make sure good form is second nature. I haven't a clue what are good exercises for cycling to train your body good form, I've googled, and haven't found much.

bruin11

I think it is just a riders natural style. Take Jens Voigt for instance. He is all over the place. He was in the break in a race last week and the Eurosport announcers were joking about it.

thump55

Please post video links to the examples you have mentioned above. You can't argue form without pictures.

therhodeo

Alot of Cavendish's tendencies come from being a track cyclist.

DXchulo

Are you talking about his form while he's sprinting or while he's just riding along?

I think it's just something you have to focus on. Put a mirror in front of your trainer and learn to keep your body still in an easy gear. Gradually increase your cadence as you get better at it, then gradually increase the resistance. When you go outside, tape a note to your stem reminding you to keep your body still. I'm guessing it's going to be a long, slow process.

merlinextraligh

Because there is a big difference.

Not sprinting, a relaxed, calm upper body is going to be the most efficient, but not the most powerful. So for example maintaining a constant pace climbing, using a lot of upper body is wasting energy.

But sprinting, recruiting all your muscles is going to produce more power. When you see people using their upper body and dancing with the bike in a sprint, they're using their upper body to resist the force of the lower body and producing more power. It helps you go faster for 20 seconds in a sprint, but it's not sustainable.

rpenmanparker 

Saying a successful pro is all over the place would seem to justify riding that way, but consider how Voigt would do if he had better form. Is it one of the differences between being near the podium and wearing the yellow jersey? I ride with a friend who has always rolled his bike from side to side with front wheel side-to- side deflection on every pedal stroke. Sure he is a stronger rider than I am, but what of it? The question is how strong could he be with better form. Just because you see it all the time doesn't mean it is right.

THSdrummer

OP: When you discuss running form, are you talking about sprinting or long distance? Through out middle school, high school, and now three years of college, I've only received two lessons for better form. One was early in high school when I was told to drop my arms, and the other was later in high school when a coach had us run with arm bands to hold your form steady in terms of how low your hands were.

As per form in cycling: I thought it was pretty well emphasized. I've only logged about 700 miles on the road and 12 hours on the trainer/rollers, but a good chunk of that has been focusing on my form: knees tucked in, straight up and down, toes forward, spinning in circles - not squares. I incorporate one-leg drills into any trainer/roller ride and also do some spinning drills.

Changing form doesn't always bolister performance. A good friend of mine got a stress fracture after trying to change his form - literally he changed one thing, and his foot broke. Years after recovery and using his old (and semi-odd) style of running he became an All American in Cross Country.

merlinextraligh

In this video, you'll see Cavendish using a lot of upper body, and side to side motion. Again sprinters do this sprinting because it's faster.

You don't want to just ride along like this because its not efficient.

merlinextraligh

There are two reasons:

1) the pedaling motion in cycling is prescribed by the crankset. In swimming, and to a lesser degree running, you have to prescribe the motion yourself, and how you do it, particularly in swimming makes a significant difference. In cycling your feet go where the pedals go and there just isn't as much opportunity for form to make a difference.

2) while there is lots of old school advice out there about pedaling mechanics, the data shows it just doesn't make much difference, and there are plenty of anecdotal examples to show how different pro's with different form win.

To the extent you want form advice for newbies, it's pretty simple, and doesn't require multiple threads.

1) learn to ride with a relaxed upper body, elbows flexed,

2) learn to pedal smoothly around the whole pedal circle,

3) learn to pedal at a high cadence, not that you always will, but if you can spin smoothly at 110-120rpms without bouncing, you don't need to think much more about pedaling mechanics.


3 types of drills will get you there:

1) fast pedal drills, 120rpm in a low gear. Start at 2 minutes work up to repeats of 10 minutes.

2) One legged drills. Pedal for a minute with just one leg, switch legs, repeat. Work up to 2minutes with 10 repeats.

3) Muscle tensions. Climb in a big gear that you can only turn over at 50-55rpm. (you need a good base and no knee issues for this).

If you can do those 3 things, you can pretty much quit worrying about form.

carpediemracing 

Form questions are hard to answer. Why the non-emphasis on it? I don't know but I'm guessing it's easier to sell gear, coach/teach power, etc. To have someone work with you on form means being with you either virtually (some kind of HD cam) or in real.

Form lays your foundation. It's true that good form (not defining it) will give you a broad base. I have a very good friend who's been riding/racing for almost 30 years and he had a bad habit when he started riding way back when. It gets so it affects his racing and now it's too ingrained for him to get rid of it. I would guess that one solid winter on rollers or a trainer would make a huge difference but he's not willing to "sacrifice" a whole off season simply to work on form. That attitude is what got him the bad habit in the first place, and it's unfortunate because he loves the sport.

I have another friend that worked on form at my insistence. I was afraid of having another rider like the one I just described above. He did everything I told him to do. I had hedged and figured he'd be cheating a bit and doing other things like push big gears or something but he never did. In the spring he was incredible, it was like his legs were a sewing machine. At first he was weak - good form, no strength - but as he got stronger he got much faster. Us bobbing trainer-types never got smooth and didn't get that much stronger. Later I learned that when following advice/coaching he does it by the book. He now raises cutting horses (a type of rodeo competition, a specialized thing sort of like match sprints are specialized for cycling) and his "horse coach" (not sure what they're called) said something about how my friend was the first person to ever actually follow the book on training a cutting horse.

I've been accused of having reasonably good form although I think I bob and weave like a boxer.

Things that make a rider look more efficient (can't say it makes them more efficient) include:
- not bouncing on the saddle (the sin my first friend does)
- not rocking hips back and forth. Related to the first, usually due to saddle being too high.
- moving body back and forth when standing. A little movement is okay but you shouldn't be lunging over alternate sides of the bar when out of the saddle. Like those really fast runners - the head is pretty steady, the torso also, but the bike is rocking back and forth.

For me a good form rider normally has their hips pretty squarely planted on the saddle, not much movement there at all. Head moves in basically a straight line, even out of the saddle, ditto torso, even if the bike is moving back and forth. They have a wide range of usable rpms, from 50-60 rpm to 120 rpm. Elbows and knees in.

The first step is to think about what you need to work on, then work on it. There may be some fit related adjustments necessary.

gc3

Isn't there another subforum for racers & wannabe racers? Maybe the 41.5 or something?

StanSeven

THSdrummer,

You are exactly right about running and not messing with form. Any good coach won't try to alter someone's form unless they are doing something obviously holding them back. People have tried all sorts of things to make runners more efficient. This includes especially things to lengthen stride and improve power. It all leads to nothing in the mild form and injuries at the worse.

nkfrench 

Side-to-side upper body movement can shift more of your bodyweight over the pedal you are pressing against. It also helps the upstroke.
Efficiency and economy are moot on a short sprint.

bigfred 

CDR will know better than I. But, I believe a degree of the variation you see in pro finishes like those in that Cavendish highlight clip can be attributed to tactcial and situational challenges.

It seems, at least to me, that riders tend to sway side to side more during hard accelerations than when maintaining high speeds. So, the speed with which the peleton approaches the finish may have some effect. When there is a stong single file leadout I think there is a tendancy to see less side to side movement. Where a slow approach to the finish sees the contenders needing to pick a time to accelerate or attempt to catch those who have and resorting to more side to side movement.

Additionally, when the peleton approaches the finish more slowly and are not strung out single file, there is some tactical consideration to defending one's line, getting wide and making it difficult to pass. So, in those instances you may see guys utilizing more side to side motion than they would naturally.

So, give a guy like Cav a long TTT style leadout with few competitors around him and the necessity to maintain that high speed rather than accelerate to it and I propose that you're more likely to see him exhibit a low and quiet upper body while sprinting for the line. Toss him in a larger group and without a leadout train, coming out of the last corner at considerably less than terminal velocity and I propose that you're far more likely to witness him using his upper body more. Not only to accellerate the bike, but, also to making passing him more challenging.

Or, I'm just full of it...........

Looigi

Yes. Needless expenditure of energy is bad, but movement by itself is not necessarily needlessly expending energy. You can needlessly expend energy fighting what would be normal fluid movement. As pointed out, being efficient is important over the long haul, but not necessarily what's most important when max efforts are involved. It's kind of like gas mileage in car. Full throttle is very inefficient but generates the most power. So, what's normal or fluid or optimal depends on the situation.